NBA 2K16: The Contested Shot Conundrum (Part 2)

[A6_Foul_Out]

None of this will work without changes to the green release mechanic.

Adding a boost to contested shots, on top of shots which should be 40-50-60% top going in at 97% needs to change.

[hanzsomehanz]

I clanked a wide open green corner 3 in Park last night 😔

Tough to swallow but "it happens". Whole squad was clanking but opposing team was lit making wild contact and contest shots.

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[hanzsomehanz]

I clanked a wide open green corner 3 in Park last night 😔

Tough to swallow but "it happens". Whole squad was clanking but opposing team was lit making wild contact and contest shots.

I also experienced that ugly event where a defender jumps and lands on you - no foul is called and the salt in the wound: you also lose the ball due to the live ball collisions system! 😔


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[ChaseB]

Quote: Originally Posted by ffaacc03

First of all, yet another excellent article ... 1. That is too much of a penalty considering Steph is among the above average moving shooters. However this should still be considered by the game on a player to player base as there are players that are good when set and others that are good when dont, a few are good at both. 2. The same as above, depends on the player, but yes ... then again, the still prevalent left, right, left, right, shoot tactic would be even more relevant, as relevant as it was before 16. 3. Attempts wise no, at least not when playing vs other hums, vs the AI maybe, but may venture to also say no. 4. 3 out of 10 times, yes, but as the other cases, depending on a player to player base. There are players that can knock contested shots more often than others and those I would like them to do so a bit more often than those who dont. Then again, as you have described in your article, these situations arent on an island, arent isolated and are interwinded, related to others, and if altered my also alter the landscape of the game, all should be accounted to see the full scope of any alteration (open/contested shots, set/moving shots, onball d, close outs, fouls, etc). This type of feedback/articles go a long way into providing valuable info to the devs, here is to hope for further refinements to a great game. P.S: Hopefully we (the users) are given even more tools to finetune (edit) the gameplay on a individual/team base level (thinking on hotspots, hotzones, moving shots, etc).

I think the big thing you say in most of these responses, and what I could have said even more in the article, is that yes all this depends on the player. As the developers more and more try to make each player unique, it then cascades and leads to talking about a lot of what I have in both these articles.

Quote: Originally Posted by JoFri

absolutely agree with this writeup. this stmt is just so well made, "but if we want “sim-oriented” games, we also have to accept that "perfect" defense can still be trumped at times." the shooting % having one out of 3 with "fake" contest by defenders is fine imo. for real fake contest, if i can propose using the jump button, should lower the success rate. why? its a choice to make. when playing defense irl, i pick my poise whether to jump to try blocking the shot or just raise my hand. in video gaming if i choose to jump contest bcos i want to play better defense, then i need to be mentally prepared for jump ball fakes foul. i need to be smarter when playing defense. having hand raise using the right stick or like what u illustrated running towards the shooter should have less effect to alter the success rate of making that shot.

Just to be clear on what I was saying (if it wasn't already), I'm not saying the turbo jump contest should be removed from the game. I just think the distance covered is too extreme and causes issues both with contesting shots and chasing down folks in odd scenarios.

Yes, it's perfectly reasonable -- in a vacuum -- to say you should be able to run and jump to contest or just hold your hand up. However, at certain angles if you run and jump you're going to plow into the shooter no matter what.

[ChaseB]

Quote: Originally Posted by 2_headedmonster

Great write up man. Enjoyed the read. -One thing i found odd, is when you talked about the contested shots you mentioned how the shots go in at a 30% clip, maybe less above the arch ( sub 30%), then rounded the percentage up to 33%. I didn't get that reasoning.

Yeah that's my bad and you should find it odd I rounded up to 33 percent. I rounded up because 33 percent just felt more understandable to a person reading (because it's just about 1 in 3) than saying 29 percent -- but I could have just said 30 percent as the rounded number because 3 out of 10 is also understandable. I also probably should have used 30 percent because that's what the number was for "tight" coverage based on a full year of stats from the 2013-14 season.

Quote: Originally Posted by 2_headedmonster

- I like how you mentioned the defensive give and take. I feel contested shots and the mid-range game are heavily effected by the backwards implementation of on-ball defense currently in 2k. The game rewards defenders for getting far too close with bumping animations, Mario runs and by forcing hesitations on the ball-handler. In addition, turning, planting and their effects on elevation when contesting shots aren't done well, so as a result created space isnt as “true” as it is in real life. For example Look at the way Hibbert moved when trying to contain McCollum off the pick and roll in your gif and how 2k represents that and you will see a stark contrast. 2k still has warping, sliding, defenders going forward rather than giving ground and an over-use of their high-speed, crab-shuffle defensive movement rather than proper foot-work. All these advantages afforded to the defense lead to the over use of the Limit Perimeter IMO.

Quote: Originally Posted by Oldhead80

One of the big reasons why the footwork and overall defensive posture on defense needs to be completely redone. This hunchback, crouched posture with big steps not only looks ridiculous but it's not a representation of the movement and quick footwork NBA players use on defense.

Quote: Originally Posted by Baebae32

Exactly. Defender in 2K arent capable of the short backwards strides necessary to contain the ball so they have to overdo the bumping (which is a foul every single time in the NBA)

I think y'all all have valid points here and it's the basis for a deeper discussion (that's probably already occurred at various points). It's a bit trickier to show via numbers and stuff like I did with these articles, but it's something I'm interested in looking at more now for sure.

[dema]

Quote: Originally Posted by dema

I think the reason they currently can't have contested jumpers going in at a realistic percentage is that it would be too easy to just jack them up all game and still have a decent offence. This is because what 2k doesn't really simulate is the footwork of a player before his shot. That means coming off screens, pulling up for shots off the dribble etc, Included in that equation should be the pass that a player gets as well, what angle his receiving it at and how accurate is it. In the NBA you can see there are some players who are much better at getting into their shot in various situations that other players would probably put up an awkward shot. So what i'm saying pretty much is the bit before the actual shot isn't simulated well. (probably because it would hard for 2k to do) But making that pre-shot part of the game skill based on the in game player and the user would make hitting a contested jumper seem less "unrealistic", and it can't just be under the hood calculations, the game has to show it. Because then the player knows "oh, he got that in because he set his feet right, the pass was straight to his chest and he followed through and released above the defender".

I take that back, after playing today and yesterday and really paying attention to it, passing and footwork does show up in effecting the shot, it is more the defensive side of the game as some of you guys have been saying that causes this issue with contested shots, a misrepresentation of what good defence is, particularly against good shooters. Just being there by the time the shot goes up makes little difference in reality but in 2k it does, the defender being in a contesting position when the offence has caught the ball should be considered great defence on a good shooter. Then when the offence puts the ball to the floor the defence steps back and the momentum and footwork of both players comes into play.

[JoFri]

Quote: Originally Posted by ChaseB

Yes, it's perfectly reasonable -- in a vacuum -- to say you should be able to run and jump to contest or just hold your hand up. However, at certain angles if you run and jump you're going to plow into the shooter no matter what.

absolutely, as this is happening irl too.

[tril]

good article. I think part of the problem is that the ratings arent fleshed out enough.
it seems as though the same ratings grade applies for all players across the board.
shooting should go beyond mastering a green release.
seriously, how does a step back effect the overall shooter rating. are they taking the step back rating and just giving it a percentage, or are they factoring the defender rating, and also, say the handle rating and the standing shot rating.

to get more accurate shot percentages you would literally have to factor every shooting attribute and defender rating into the said shot.
if they used all the variables available and then some, you probably wouldnt need a consistency rating. but if they are adding consistency ratings then their should be a consistency rating for each individual shot type. not the overall.

the quest is to get accurate portrayal in overall game-play. there are enough ratings to make the risk.reward feature in the game more fulfilling.

the standing corner 3 for instance. some shooters can just catch and shoot and make it. While other have a better percentage getting a corner three by dribbling the ball first, then shooting. Now if you factor a closing defender to this equation, you could get more randomness.
again I dont know how complex 2ks codes are, so these could exists.

as far as the turbo defender, its simple. once the defender is out of position, or over commits on defense, the offensive ai should break out of set offense and drive to the hoop or take the open shot. An aggressive offensive player always takes what the defnse gives them. This isnt properly reflected in the game-play. There are more than enough times when the user defender gets lost and the AI controlled player does not take advantage.
the end result to this, would most likely be that users would be forced to play more controlled and sim style defense.
this should be applicable across the board. A reach in foul should always be a reach in, a blocking foul should always be a blocking foul.
On offense, a player that turbos throughout the game should be equivalent to player lowering their shoulder and driving, which then should increase the chances of it being an offensive foul.