What things in 2K17 need tuning? (Video)

[Kushmir]

Obviously i'm talking about gameplay here. We've all played tons of games at this point and now we have a better handle on the gameplay stuff that needs tweaking.

My over-arching issue is what I call catering "green release mentality" Beluba touched on this earlier but I believe many of 2K's head-to-head issues are rooted in the fact that the the game's default is user-timing rather than real shooting %. The problem with that is twofold, it means that when someone gets the release down ratings no longer matter enough. You're seeing the effects of this when you look at some of the experiences in the "lets talk about steph curry" thread. But atleast Curry is a good shooter. Oftentimes basketball is about giving the offense the lowest percentage shot. Imagine doing that and watching Julius Randle of all people beat you from behind the arc repeatedly like I did here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkl2pjInSvY


The Lakers video has a few things that don't jibe from a simulation POV. The constant look-at-me pausing aside, the jump-pass is literally the animation that you would think would be prone to bobbled catches, bad passes and the like. Instead it seems the defenders struggle with it. That kind of thing is arcady and can't happen. Also, the prevalence of contested made 3pters needs serious tweaking. One or two is fine, but when being good at the shot meter overrides taking bad shots over the course of a game, we have a problem.

I've seen this kind of thing too much. Why rate players if release is more important? why can't it be a mixture of both? A good release is fine but hitting 3s with Hassan Whiteside breaks the game. I hope we see a change in philosophy here. Good shots are being determined by release rather than being open--thats an issue.

Other things that need tuning:

1. This animation needs foul outcomes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SX0-Y7IE09Y
2. Can you say illegal screen? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SX0-Y7IE09Y
3. Isn't this a drawn foul? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=
4. Another drawn foul. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOjG3Hd3fWM
5. The game sorely needs more bad passes based on distance/player rating https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOjG3Hd3fWM
6. Imagine this animation at the end of the game with seconds to shoot https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Dq5JojcGaw

The dialogue here on OS combined with the devs that take our feedback form one of the more perfect symbiotic user/dev relationships IMO. I look forward to the feedback so we can take steps to improve 2K17.

[El_Poopador]

Personally, I like the green meter being a 100% make. There are times in real life where you shoot the ball and you know it's going in from the second you let it go. It's nice to see that represented in the video game world.

That being said, it should really only happen on open shots or if your player is hot, and you should only get it if the shot you took is within that player's normal range.

[Peninc]

Quote: Originally Posted by Kushmir

Obviously i'm talking about gameplay here. We've all played tons of games at this point and now we have a better handle on the gameplay stuff that needs tweaking. My over-arching issue is what I call catering "green release mentality" Beluba touched on this earlier but I believe many of 2K's head-to-head issues are rooted in the fact that the the game's default is user-timing rather than real shooting %. The problem with that is twofold, it means that when someone gets the release down ratings no longer matter. You're seeing the effects of this when you look at some of the experiences in the "lets talk about steph curry" thread. But atleast Curry is a good shooter. Oftentimes basketball is about giving the offense the lowest percentage shot. Imagine doing that and watching Julius Randle of all people beat you from behind the arc repeatedly like I did here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkl2pjInSvY The Lakers video has a few things that don't jibe from a simulation POV. The constant look-at-me pausing aside, the jump-pass is literally the animation that you would think would be prone to bobbled catches, bad passes and the like. Instead it seems the defenders struggle with it. That kind of thing is arcady and can't happen. Also, the prevalence of contested made 3pters needs serious tweaking. One or two is fine, but when being good at the shot meter overrides taking bad shots over the course of a game, we have a problem. I've seen this kind of thing too much. Why rate players if release is more important? why can't it be a mixture of both? A good release is fine but hitting 3s with Hassan Whiteside breaks the game. I hope we see a change in philosophy here. Good shots are being determined by release rather than being open--thats an issue. Other things that need tuning: 1. This animation needs foul outcomes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SX0-Y7IE09Y 2. Can you say illegal screen? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SX0-Y7IE09Y 3. Isn't this a drawn foul? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v= 4. Another drawn foul. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOjG3Hd3fWM 5. The game sorely needs more bad passes based on distance/player rating https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOjG3Hd3fWM 6. Imagine this animation at the end of the game with seconds to shoot https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Dq5JojcGaw The dialogue here on OS combined with the devs that take our feedback form one of the more perfect symbiotic user/dev relationships IMO. I look forward to the feedback so we can take steps to improve 2K17.

If anyone can consistently make contested threes with Whiteside or Randle, then I don't know what to say. They've simply mastered hand eye coordination and they are a top tier 2K player. I would imagine though that more than 95% of people cannot do this, and are unable to break the game in this way. I'm certainly one such person who would never be able to replicate some of the things you've posted above unless I tuned the sliders to do so.

Personally, I absolutely love the rate at which shots are successful and unsuccessful, both contested and open (when playing at Superstar or above). Why? Because when I watch NBA basketball, I see contested shots go in at a fairly decent rate. In fact most shots taken in the NBA are to some extent contested. Very rarely do you see really wide open shots in a competitive game. My biggest problem with your point of view is that what you suggest is likely to make 2K17 more "videogamey” and too similar to last year's game, which I could not play because for me it did not replicate what I saw in the real NBA.

I should not be able to accurately predict that a shot will miss based on the strength of my contest, Or that a shot will go in every time solely based on how open I am when I take it and my shot timing. That's not realistic. Sure we ARE playing a video game, but unless shot mechanics and release points are broken (which they have been in previous 2Ks) I can't agree with the points you've made, even though I understand why you've made them.

Edit: forgive the long reply but I agree with your additional points. I think though that these issues are a byproduct or the tech available to the developer at this point. Though obviously I can't know for sure. Bumping animations without fouls are there to balance the game, because 2K hasn't yet quite worked out how to allow normal drives to the hoop without it resulting in a game that's too easy. I think they've improved it a lot over the years though.

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[Kushmir]

Quote: Originally Posted by Peninc

If anyone can consistently make contested threes with Whiteside or Randle, then I don't know what to say. They've simply mastered hand eye coordination and they are a top tier 2K player. I would imagine though that more than 95% of people cannot do this, and are unable to break the game in this way. I'm certainly one such person who would never be able to replicate some of the things you've posted above unless I tuned the sliders to do so. Personally, I absolutely love the rate at which shots are successful and unsuccessful, both contested and open (when playing at Superstar or above). I should not be able to accurately predict that a shot will miss based on the strength of my contest, Or that a shot will go in every time solely based on how open I am when I take it and my shot timing. That's not realistic. Sure we ARE playing a video game, but unless shot mechanics and release points are broken (which they have been in previous 2Ks) I can't agree with the points you've made, even though I understand why you've made them.

You lost me. you think i'm saying you should be able to insure a miss by contesting? that actually goes against everything I believe in. I think contested shots should go in a lot less than open ones and that reality is pretty much common knowledge in the NBA. here's a Grantland piece that looks at the HUGE difference in contested/open FG percentages. http://grantland.com/the-triangle/he...-its-the-best/

I think the point re: Randle/Whiteside is they struggle to make open 3s. As a matter of fact: HW has never made an NBA three. EVER.

what i'm saying is that ratings/skillset matter, good timing on the shot stick shouldn't override that...the only thing that can turn Randle into a decent 3pt shooter is practice (or a miracle lol) Did you watch the Laker game I posted?

Bumping animations are fine. Animations where the defender mis-times his block and lands on the shooter with no foul are fixable. Especially since there ARE foul calls on jump shots and animations where shooters draw fouls (though rare) I actually think the driving/defense balance is good. I'm fine with it in fact.

[stillfeelme]

Shooting overall is well done this year. This is coming primarily from playing on SS Sim and HOF Sim offline. You have to remember if you are an online player for PNO the game is tuned differently than offline. They have to tune the game differently to account for lag. I think the users that can cheese the releases are few and far between. I am also certain that a certain rating is required to get a excellent release while contested.

The only thing I think may need to be limited on success is running fade away threes. I am having a hard time believing they have enough stats to justify the release being the deciding factor whether that goes in.

1. And one FG% is too too high offline HOF SIM for both user and CPU.
2. I think the CPU shooting may still be too high for perimeter shooting. I am not sure if this is a HOF issue though. It is noticeable for the average shooters. Low 70 rating guys are basically average to below average shooters seem to be good shooters. This is just me others might be fine with it.
3. Moving screens in general the contact radius and suction into contact appears extreme it like they over did it. I understand what they were going for but it may be over done. I am not saying eliminate it but reduce it

[Kushmir]

Forgot one: This is the way users have taken to circumventing the great work the devs did with inbounding in 2K16. Now its inbound to half-court and then direct pass to whoever is streaking...this is one of the reasons we need much more "bad pass outcomes" on long passes. http://grantland.com/the-triangle/he...-its-the-best/

Here are some of the bad pass outcomes i've seen that are great.
1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3oKpeFdzbk
2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeFH5lCQOtg
3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlgFyAHf_V4
4. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMuhtkV0Nok

[Peninc]

Quote: Originally Posted by Kushmir

You lost me. you think i'm saying you should be able to insure a miss by contesting? that actually goes against everything I believe in. I think contested shots should go in a lot less than open ones and that reality is pretty much common knowledge in the NBA. here's a Grantland piece that looks at the HUGE difference in contested/open FG percentages. http://grantland.com/the-triangle/he...-its-the-best/ I think the point re: Randle/Whiteside is they struggle to make open 3s. As a matter of fact: HW has never made an NBA three. EVER. what i'm saying is that ratings/skillset matter, good timing on the shot stick shouldn't override that...the only thing that can turn Randle into a decent 3pt shooter is practice (or a miracle lol) Did you watch the Laker game I posted? Bumping animations are fine. Animations where the defender mis-times his block and lands on the shooter with no foul are fixable. Especially since there ARE foul calls on jump shots and animations where shooters draw fouls (though rare) I actually think the driving/defense balance is good. I'm fine with it in fact.

Fair enough. But the devs made it an emphasis to make skills matter this year and I can understand why they wanted to try that approach. Otherwise you end up with a game where the control is inevitably taken out of your hands and stats and ratings do all the work. What I gather is that there is always a balancing act and if the devs implement something that the AI and underlying tech can't support or balance it can potentially ruin the game. Maybe they went this "make skills matter" route too soon but I think it was well needed to freshen up the series. As long as the instances you're referring to are the exception and not the norm, I think I can live with it.

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[Kushmir]

Quote: Originally Posted by Peninc

Fair enough. But the devs made it an emphasis to make skills matter this year and I can understand why they wanted to try that approach. Otherwise you end up with a game where the control is inevitably taken out of your hands and stats and ratings do all the work. What I gather is that there is always a balancing act and if the devs implement something that the AI and underlying tech can't support or balance it can potentially ruin the game. Maybe they went this "make skills matter" route too soon but I think it was well needed to freshen up the series. As long as the instances you're referring to are the exception and not the norm, I think I can live with it. Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk

I hear that, and i'm sure the balancing act can't be easy...I just think a mixture of user-timing and ratings is the best way to go. Guys should have a hard time with stuff outside their skillset. Ben Simmons should struggle to hit open threes, for instance.

but no, I hated when user contests (even late ones) virtually guaranteed a miss in 2K16. I hate user bonuses (they're like participation trophies in my eyes) I wrote about it here: https://spgmg.blogspot.com/2016/04/u...d-or-good.html

I've been in the HOF queue for some time now and I can't say they aren't the rule. While i'm def not struggling to get wins, I play to the Sixers strengths. Elite level players are too often able to circumvent the limitations and like the video shows.....make Randle a 3pt threat.