Why Patches and Updates put 2k in a lose-lose situation (Great Read)

[kabamaru]

Quote: Originally Posted by jxelite2430

One thing people have to realize is that at the end of the day it is a videogame. It will never be perfect, that's why you focus on the things that are most realistic which are locomotion, animations, fluidity, and tuning the variables of basketball such as shooting, stamina, etc that make it most realistic. Having separate servers won't make it perfect for everyone but it will allow players to choose a server that will most replicate what they want not exactly replicate what they want.

As long as all these problems remain I will continue to be unsatisfied no matter if I am on the sim or the casual server.

Slider don't matter if a pass can go through my whole defense to find a Center who has his eyes turned away the ball, but manages to catch the ball somehow and finish with perfect fluidity

[ksuttonjr76]

Quote: Originally Posted by Dione2014

As a person that has hooped on every level but the pro level (injuries) I think i can say accurately what real basketball is like, and why 2K really isn't even close. Contested shots go in a lot more in real life than they do in a game. A shot contest bothers some players a lot more than others and isn't properly replicated in 2K. The distance for counting as a contested is much closer in real life. Hands up d in real life isn't a very good contest on even on a half way decent shooter like it is in the game Beating someone off the dribble is as easy as getting a step on a guy in real life. This is not the case in 2k Help defense is much more intelligent in reality vs how 2k replicates it. These are all things that really hold this game back from being a complete simulation game. You can mostly blame the online community for that one. Things have to be put in place to stop cheesing. That's why the people who want sim are the ones really losing right now.

Your perspective is that of offensive minded player. Having played basketball on many levels myself and being a defensive-minded player, I don't agree with your statements.

1) Contested shots don't go in that often. When contesting a shot, the idea is to get your hand in the path of the ball's predicted path. When I contested shots, I jumped straight up and not at the player. I did that even on late closeouts. When you jump at the player, your arm and hands are coming at an angle which is the reason why there's the illusion that contested shots go in at a "high" frequency. Players use an improper form to contest shots which allow players to be unbothered by the late contest, because your hand is below the level of the release point. Good shooters are taught to square with the basket, so blocking their vision won't help if the shooter is already in their shooting motion. When you jump straight up, you're forcing the shooter to change their aim to avoid your arm which is clearly in the path of their shot.

2) Hands up defense can be effective depending on the player. Ideally, it should be used against pull-up shooters and spot-up shooters and NOT against playmakers/dribblers. It's purpose is to put you in a better position to slap the ball down or deflect it slightly to interrupt the shooting motion if the player decides to shoot the ball. The hands-up defense is widely regarded as a "give me free points" move, but it's effective for forcing "cocky" players into bad shot selections. In some cases, those players tend to shoot their teams out, because they're so convinced they're going to shoot 9 for 10 when that's not the reality.

3) Beating someone off the dribble is not as "easy" as just getting the first step on someone. Beating someone off the dribble is a read and react situation. When I played defense, I was taught to watch the belly button area and their eyes and not the ball. A player can move the ball all they wanted with fancy dribble moves, but it means nothing if the body doesn't go with it. The eyes tell you how the play is developing behind you. Beating someone off the dribble meant forcing the defensive player to make a mistake. When it's said and done, the defense does have to gamble, because playing defense is about anticipating the next move. In short, you didn't beat me, because you was faster. You beat me, because I guessed wrong on your intentions.

Disclaimer: I grew up during a time before the raise of And1 mixtapes and before "breaking ankles" was popular. Dribbling was more about separation and creating scoring opportunities for your teammates. I played some of the younger generations with this new mentality as I got older, but honestly....I find that those players are wasting time trying to showboat instead of scoring. Second, I had a stupid growth spurt, so I know how to defend all five positions, and Indiana basketball is not as flashy as other states I played ball in.

[Luke Skywalker]

The online gamers have ruined the game big time. Now no matter what sliders you use, the percentages are still high and you can hit everything, Idk what 2K did should've left it alone.

Maybe its a sign to retire from gaming (going to be 30 this month)

[BegBy]

Quote: Originally Posted by ksuttonjr76

Your perspective is that of offensive minded player. Having played basketball on many levels myself and being a defensive-minded player, I don't agree with your statements. 1) Contested shots don't go in that often. When contesting a shot, the idea is to get your hand in the path of the ball's predicted path. When I contested shots, I jumped straight up and not at the player. I did that even on late closeouts. When you jump at the player, your arm and hands are coming at an angle which is the reason why there's the illusion that contested shots go in at a "high" frequency. Players use an improper form to contest shots which allow players to be unbothered by the late contest, because your hand is below the level of the release point. Good shooters are taught to square with the basket, so blocking their vision won't help if the shooter is already in their shooting motion. When you jump straight up, you're forcing the shooter to change their aim to avoid your arm which is clearly in the path of their shot. 2) Hands up defense can be effective depending on the player. Ideally, it should be used against pull-up shooters and spot-up shooters and NOT against playmakers/dribblers. It's purpose is to put you in a better position to slap the ball down or deflect it slightly to interrupt the shooting motion if the player decides to shoot the ball. The hands-up defense is widely regarded as a "give me free points" move, but it's effective for forcing "cocky" players into bad shot selections. In some cases, those players tend to shoot their teams out, because they're so convinced they're going to shoot 9 for 10 when that's not the reality. 3) Beating someone off the dribble is not as "easy" as just getting the first step on someone. Beating someone off the dribble is a read and react situation. When I played defense, I was taught to watch the belly button area and their eyes and not the ball. A player can move the ball all they wanted with fancy dribble moves, but it means nothing if the body doesn't go with it. The eyes tell you how the play is developing behind you. Beating someone off the dribble meant forcing the defensive player to make a mistake. When it's said and done, the defense does have to gamble, because playing defense is about anticipating the next move. In short, you didn't beat me, because you was faster. You beat me, because I guessed wrong on your intentions. Disclaimer: I grew up during a time before the raise of And1 mixtapes and before "breaking ankles" was popular. Dribbling was more about separation and creating scoring opportunities for your teammates. I played some of the younger generations with this new mentality as I got older, but honestly....I find that those players are wasting time trying to showboat instead of scoring. Second, I had a stupid growth spurt, so I know how to defend all five positions, and Indiana basketball is not as flashy as other states I played ball in.

You say you're a defensive minded player, but you then say that even on close outs you jumped straight up. Hate to say it, dude, but that's a fantastically horrible idea. It would get laughed off of NBA courts. Or I'm wrong and so is basically every single coach and player that we see play today. I'd have to say that it's probably not all of us. Why don't you see NBA players do it?

You watched the belly button area and eyes as a defender. That's probably not a great idea either. These defensive strategies sound like an old coach helping some young guy in a bad basketball movie. Guys don't just use their arms dribbling. They use head and shoulder movement, hesitations and exaggerated quick moves to sell what they are doing. Change of speed and head fakes make average defenders look worse than really are. None of what I am saying has to be as profound as an AND1 mixtape either. Subtle moves, especially midrange or on the block get guys baskets all night. Show me video of a great NBA player defending by watching John Wall's belly and eyes. Then show me how often said great defender keeps Wall checked, because I'd loooove to see it.

I'm also going to say it is easy to get a step on the wing on a guy. It's way easier than stopping a guy, that's for sure. First steps and the triple threat position are arguably the most effective way to set up a scoring chance in a one on one situation and more than half the league can make defenders look like they are just in the way. Look at Tracy McGrady's career. He got a third of his points by making his perimeter defender look like a pylon because of his first step. You are right in saying defending is reactionary. That's exactly why it's hard. As a defender you have to react and that leaves you at a disadvantage. Especially since the rules dictate that you cannot violently bang into the person you are defending. Good defenders can anticipate where the ballhandler may go by trying to influence their decision, recognizing the offensive set and postion, leaving a path to an area on the floor less protected and knowing where his help is. Any decent coach will teach you to funnel a ballhandler to the help defense, baseline or out of bounds. There's really no other way to do it.

Good defenders are hard to come by in the NBA. You can count the standouts on both hands. Good ballhandlers, guys with explosive first steps, good spot up shooters, passers, etc are all over the league. Largely because it's an offensive oriented game due to the rules, physics (no morphing and speed boosting) and also that defense is really hard. Good offensive players are often more valued than exceptional defenders for a reason.

There's a reason why guys like Leonard, Butler, George, Allen etc are standouts. Most of those guys are good to very good offensive players also, making their value even more obvious. For every great NBA defender, you can name at least 10 good offensive players and they are at least as effective if not more so because, and I quote "...this game has always been, and always will be, about buckets."

I like defense too, but it's largely a team effort. One on one defense isn't a viable option in the NBA. If it were, we'd see it a lot more and we'd see a lot more of the standouts I mentioned instead of only about 5% of the league. I truly don't subscribe to all these theories you listed or anyone defending 2K's "bump into him as fast as you can to make him pick up his dribble" brand of defense. That's not real. It's poor defensive video game mumbo jumbo. It's also ruining the 2K series and it's laughably transparent ruse is sadly infecting and influencing peoples' actual perspective on how the NBA is played.

[tril]

Quote: Originally Posted by jxelite2430

2k has done a very good job at listening to feedback of the public consensus about changes and tuning that needs to be made (especially Mike Wang in these forums). However this creates bigger problems isntead of solving pre-existing one's and here's why... The overwhelming majority of NBA 2k players can be split into 2 groups, one that favors more casual style of game play and one that prefers a realistic basketball simulation experience. The problem that this presents 2k (especially Mike Wang during his tuning updates) is that Mike and the rest of 2k has to try and cater to these 2 distinct groups who each want a certain type of game play that is on opposite sides of the spectrum So when Mike makes a tuning upgrade making more realistic shooting % for example, 1/2 of the consumers (or maybe even more) are going to be upset that they aren't getting the type of casual experience they want. If Mike makes a change catering to more casual game play than the other 1/2 will be upset that they aren't getting the realistic game play that they were hoping for. Mike tries to adjusts or tune the game play to where it's a balance and that is the biggest problem. Meeting in the middle to try and cater to both types of players does not result in balance but rather it results in neither side getting the full experience of the play style they want. This is where NBA 2k starts to lose it's identity and becomes very inconsistent in terms of game play because it is trying to be 2 things at once. It's as if a company is trying to create a transport machine for 2 groups, one who wants a car and one who wants a plane. Instead of the company making a separate car or plane the company tries to make a machine that is both and has to compromise certain characteristics of the car or the plane in order to make it happen. The end result is a machine that isn't as good of a car as it could be or isn't as good of a plane as it could be because the company tried to make both instead of separating and making one for each group. THE SOLUTION: Making 2 separate games is unreasonable because of the amount of resources it would take and money it would cost. The quick and fairly simple solution that would be a win-win for both types of gamers would be this... Normal (normal game play that you experience now) vs realistic (game tuned for more realistic game play/no green releases) server options so everyone gets what they want. You want no green releases, game play that is tuned to punish poor shot selection more harshly, severe fatigue punishment for over dribbling, no shot meter, etc? play on "realistic" servers Having fun just the way the tuning is currently set online?, play on the "normal" servers. Win Win for everyone. These type of server settings exist in other genres of games and 2k can implement this and make their jobs a whole lot easier in terms of focusing the tuning updates for each server setting (normal or realistic) instead of for the entire player base that is wanting a style of game play that is on different ends of the spectrum.

they had this but they took it out this year. they had a default, casual, and sim setting.
next year they need to correct their mistake and put these settings back in the game.

[Leasim96]

I agree that 2 different servers with different sliders would potentially satisfy both. Not only that - but it could also aid players in finding players that match their play style and basketball IQ. I doubt the annoying ball hogs would be in realistic settings. If anything way less of them.

Sent from my SKY 5.0W using Tapatalk

[ksuttonjr76]

Quote: Originally Posted by BegBy

You say you're a defensive minded player, but you then say that even on close outs you jumped straight up. Hate to say it, dude, but that's a fantastically horrible idea. It would get laughed off of NBA courts. Or I'm wrong and so is basically every single coach and player that we see play today. I'd have to say that it's probably not all of us. Why don't you see NBA players do it? You watched the belly button area and eyes as a defender. That's probably not a great idea either. These defensive strategies sound like an old coach helping some young guy in a bad basketball movie. Guys don't just use their arms dribbling. They use head and shoulder movement, hesitations and exaggerated quick moves to sell what they are doing. Change of speed and head fakes make average defenders look worse than really are. None of what I am saying has to be as profound as an AND1 mixtape either. Subtle moves, especially midrange or on the block get guys baskets all night. Show me video of a great NBA player defending by watching John Wall's belly and eyes. Then show me how often said great defender keeps Wall checked, because I'd loooove to see it. I'm also going to say it is easy to get a step on the wing on a guy. It's way easier than stopping a guy, that's for sure. First steps and the triple threat position are arguably the most effective way to set up a scoring chance in a one on one situation and more than half the league can make defenders look like they are just in the way. Look at Tracy McGrady's career. He got a third of his points by making his perimeter defender look like a pylon because of his first step. You are right in saying defending is reactionary. That's exactly why it's hard. As a defender you have to react and that leaves you at a disadvantage. Especially since the rules dictate that you cannot violently bang into the person you are defending. Good defenders can anticipate where the ballhandler may go by trying to influence their decision, recognizing the offensive set and postion, leaving a path to an area on the floor less protected and knowing where his help is. Any decent coach will teach you to funnel a ballhandler to the help defense, baseline or out of bounds. There's really no other way to do it. Good defenders are hard to come by in the NBA. You can count the standouts on both hands. Good ballhandlers, guys with explosive first steps, good spot up shooters, passers, etc are all over the league. Largely because it's an offensive oriented game due to the rules, physics (no morphing and speed boosting) and also that defense is really hard. Good offensive players are often more valued than exceptional defenders for a reason. There's a reason why guys like Leonard, Butler, George, Allen etc are standouts. Most of those guys are good to very good offensive players also, making their value even more obvious. For every great NBA defender, you can name at least 10 good offensive players and they are at least as effective if not more so because, and I quote "...this game has always been, and always will be, about buckets." I like defense too, but it's largely a team effort. One on one defense isn't a viable option in the NBA. If it were, we'd see it a lot more and we'd see a lot more of the standouts I mentioned instead of only about 5% of the league. I truly don't subscribe to all these theories you listed or anyone defending 2K's "bump into him as fast as you can to make him pick up his dribble" brand of defense. That's not real. It's poor defensive video game mumbo jumbo. It's also ruining the 2K series and it's laughably transparent ruse is sadly infecting and influencing peoples' actual perspective on how the NBA is played.

And your comment is EXACTLY the reason why basketball and the ability to play one on one defense is a lost art. Players are told it's easier to play offense than it is to play defense. Players are told defense is always a team concept. Also, you glossed right over the reasons I gave for each tactic.

The eyes telegraphs possible passes. Watching the belly button (specifically the hips) telegraphs the direction the ball handler is going to launch or move.

Playing defense is a desire and a rare skill. Playing defense is having a sixth sense or awareness of your surroundings. Playing defense is studying and learning your opponents' dribbling and shooting tendencies. Playing defense is not being scared to look bad or getting dunked on (another reason why people are scared to learn it). A great defensive player makes team defense that much easier, because that player can attack the ball handler.

The current crop of offensive players only look so good, because the current generation of players don't know how to play real defense.

[BegBy]

Quote: Originally Posted by ksuttonjr76

And your comment is EXACTLY the reason why basketball and the ability to play one on one defense is a lost art. Players are told it's easier to play offense than it is to play defense. Players are told defense is always a team concept. Also, you glossed right over the reasons I gave for each tactic. The eyes telegraphs possible passes. Watching the belly button (specifically the hips) telegraphs the direction the ball handler is going to launch or move. Playing defense is a desire and a rare skill. Playing defense is having a sixth sense or awareness of your surroundings. Playing defense is studying and learning your opponents' dribbling and shooting tendencies. Playing defense is not being scared to look bad or getting dunked on (another reason why people are scared to learn it). A great defensive player makes team defense that much easier, because that player can attack the ball handler. The current crop of offensive players only look so good, because the current generation of players don't know how to play real defense.

Cool. So if an entire league of players played more like you - it'd be better. Fantastic insight! If only...

So, back to reality, where the entire NBA doesn't play like you, and plays like it does (offensive hacks that are just good by default because of everyone's lack of defensive work ethic) now we can talk about how 2K makes everyone play like you instead of their real NBA counterparts and how patches to increase realism can be effective.

Even if the NBA all played like you or Kawai and somehow a balllhandler got by you, you'd be beat. In the game, that's not the case because the defender magically runs through you at an increased rate of speed that's equally as staggering as their ability to actually morph through you. Or they bump into the ballhandler from behind, causing the (now apparently) motor skilled impaired ballhandler to stumble and pick up his dribble. Even in your world where defense reigns, there are still the NBA rules and the rules of physics. That's what requires patching, and quite frankly it needs to be abandoned, because until the entire NBA plays like you and can shut everyone down in iso situations, it's just not realistic.

As an aside, maybe you should start teaching clinics on defense, coach. I'm certain Gregg Popovich sure couid put your nuggets of wisdom to good use. Maybe even win another title.