Videos: CPU transition defense and ACE have little if any logic

[jxelite2430]

I just sat and watched a portion of 2ktv during a loading screen where Scott Og is bragging about the ACE engine this year and I was confused because, many others including myself in this forum have felt that this is one of the most poorly coded things in 2k17 pre-patch 1.05. Not fully blaming OG or Czar because I respect him and Czars bball IQ but as a group the engineers/OG and Czar have been a disappointment in their ability to replicate realistic CPU IQ that I've seen in years past.

The transition defense does not treat players individually or based on their skills like they did in 2k16. In 2k16 on the high difficulties, players would swarm on help defense when I cranked the CPU help defense and CPU Def awareness up past 65. This year I have CPU help defense at 90 and Def awareness at 100 against CPU HOF ACE and this is what I get this year...

* I was replaying games from Sunday so it's Warriors vs Suns

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Watch how P.J Tuckers first instinct is to run to the paint, the CPU constantly runs to the paint and has shows no logic on the persons skillset they are supposed to be guarding but rather their mindset "run to the paint because that's what Czar/engineers told me to do" instead of being coded to recognize how dangerous of a shooter is wide open on perimeter

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Again Devin Booker is told by the coding to run to the paint instead of to recognize that he has one of the greatest shooters of all time wide open and then to not even close out. @00:23 and 00:25 you can see CPU help defense is at 90 and CPU def awareness at 100.


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Most dangerous shooter of all time left wide open because coding/non existent CPU ACE logic tells defender to just run to pain no matter who they are playing against

• Don't tell me "this is because your playing with the Warriors so it's hard to defend". The CPU does with with every team I play with and if anything playing with Warriors should make them jump out even harder to the 3 point line in transition.

• Some will say it's because you have help defense all the way at 90 so they are over helping in the paint. That would be a wrong assumption because the only reason I cranked CPU help defense to 90 was to try and combat this problem which I was having on the default SS/ HOF settings

Bonus Vids of intuitive

Spoiler

Double Team Simulator with no help/rotation logic

CPU ACE that OG bragged about on the 2ktv segment during loading screens

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Many teams double curry off pick n roll in real life but there is always help defense swarming behind the pick n roll double team because defenders know they are in a 4 on 3 situation. 2k16 would do that but 2k17 not at all

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Sliders have no effect on CPU IQ because the problem is buried deeper in the coding which the sliders don't seem to effect this year, so for now I'm stuck playing a game where the highest difficulties and slider adjustments still make the CPU have Jr. High level bball IQ especially defensively. I'm not being unreasonable or trying to pick on 2k17 because it does many things great (like how CPU ball handler attacks pick n rolls this year) I just want the High IQ CPU back that I used to play against in 2k16 and other previous editions of 2k.

[BegBy]

Re: Videos: CPU transition defense and ACE have little if any logic

Sliders have no effect on CPU IQ because the problem is buried deeper in the coding which the sliders don't seem to effect this year, so for now I'm stuck playing a game where the highest difficulties and slider adjustments still make the CPU have Jr. High level bball IQ especially defensively.

That's an insult to most middle school kids, sir.

[Impetuous65]

Re: Videos: CPU transition defense and ACE have little if any logic

I don't think this is a case of bad AI and more of a design flaw. Da_Czar stated the Offensive Player is by default looking for the 3 now more than ever based on NBA TRENDS, and I think his point is the modernization of NBA Basketball. The problem is Scott OG Defensive design is to have a perimeter player leak out early on those shots resulting in a perimeter player bieng a "rim runnner" and running to the rim is his primary focus when he's getting back. I just think Scott's fastbreak Defense philosphy is not on the same page as Da_Czar's offensive fastbreak philosphy.

I think this is a case of running to guard a space instead of a man, is a single focus of the player whose back is turned the whole time, which leaves his awareness level unaware. They need to change the Rim Runner to turn around if the basket isn't being threatened jut prior to the "NAIL", at least he can make a somewhat of a contested shot.

Not Bad AI, Bad Design, the AI is program to do just what they are doing, it's just a 2016 offensive fastbreak philosophy versus a 1995 Defensive fastbreak philosophy. Scott is going to have to add some layers to his defense.

[jxelite2430]

Re: Videos: CPU transition defense and ACE have little if any logic

I don't think this is a case of bad AI and more of a design flaw. Da_Czar stated the Offensive Player is by default looking for the 3 now more than ever based on NBA TRENDS, and I think his point is the modernization of NBA Basketball. The problem is Scott OG Defensive design is to have a perimeter player leak out early on those shots resulting in a perimeter player bieng a "rim runnner" and running to the rim is his primary focus when he's getting back. I just think Scott's fastbreak Defense philosphy is not on the same page as Da_Czar's offensive fastbreak philosphy.

I think this is a case of running to guard a space instead of a man, is a single focus of the player whose back is turned the whole time, which leaves his awareness level unaware. They need to change the Rim Runner to turn around if the basket isn't being threatened jut prior to the "NAIL", at least he can make a somewhat of a contested shot.

Not Bad AI, Bad Design, the AI is program to do just what they are doing, it's just a 2016 offensive fastbreak philosophy versus a 1995 Defensive fastbreak philosophy. Scott is going to have to add some layers to his defense.

When I see the CPu DEF doing the same things even when I crank up the CPu DEF awareness to 100 and the help D up to 90 it shows how little effect the sliders have on CPu behavior. 2k16 and before I remember how much of an adjustment you'd have to make when you turned the CPu DEf awareness or help defense strength up past 65. This year it doesn't seem to play much role

[LorenzoDC]

Re: Videos: CPU transition defense and ACE have little if any logic

Transition is maybe not the best way to demonstrate the whole spectrum of AI failure in the game, because in transition, the game routinely ignores ratings and physics and IQ across the board. That's a problem in and of itself, but the player ratings and AI are more active in half court.

Now, half court defense is also a hot mess with the way rotations work (or don't) and how frequently immune they are to management or correction by user settings. ACE on? Please, that's a formula to be COOKED by your teammates' defense.

And of course we STILL have no explanations of how the in game defensive adjustments actually work and interact with defensive settings in the pause menu. It's insane they would even bother to put all this stuff in the game and not explain it, unless of course they know it's all broken so why try to explain it (quite possible, actually).

There's so much not working with AI and defense in this game pre patch 5 that it really is not fun to play. They promised and marketed user control this year and yet we have neither control on the stick input level consistently (animations and nerfs) nor on the strategic game management level (defensive settings and adjustments).

This is why I stopped playing almost 2 weeks ago. We'll see if I come back post patch, though I have still tried to answer questions in the freelance wiki to help people who still play and enjoy the game.

[jxelite2430]

Re: Videos: CPU transition defense and ACE have little if any logic

Transition is maybe not the best way to demonstrate the whole spectrum of AI failure in the game, because in transition, the game routinely ignores ratings and physics and IQ across the board. That's a problem in and of itself, but the player ratings and AI are more active in half court.

Now, half court defense is also a hot mess with the way rotations work (or don't) and how frequently immune they are to management or correction by user settings. ACE on? Please, that's a formula to be COOKED by your teammates' defense.

And of course we STILL have no explanations of how the in game defensive adjustments actually work and interact with defensive settings in the pause menu. It's insane they would even bother to put all this stuff in the game and not explain it, unless of course they know it's all broken so why try to explain it (quite possible, actually).

There's so much not working with AI and defense in this game pre patch 5 that it really is not fun to play. They promised and marketed user control this year and yet we have neither control on the stick input level consistently (animations and nerfs) or on the strategic game management level (defensive settings and adjustments).

This is why I stopped playing almost 2 weeks ago. We'll see if I come back post patch, though I have still tried to answer questions in the freelance wiki to help people who still play and enjoy the game.

Last year I remember teams sprinting out to curry or klay when I'd play with warriors in transition, it's something wrong that's not being detected that was being detected in years past.

It's just funny how when I see a 2ktv segment during load screen where OG is bragging about the ACE then a few minutes later in game I had to keep running to pause menu because my ACE was telling my center to play Omer Asik tight on the perimeter and deny ball because he had gotten hot from a few put backs in the paint, but not recognizing Asik not only hasn't hit a 3 or jump shot all game but will never take a shot from out there anyway... I would take ACE off but there are too many adjustments to dig through and too many clanky menus for me to want to set up my own settings for every single aspect every time I boot up a game.

[fluent2332]

Re: Videos: CPU transition defense and ACE have little if any logic

Too many options/making things too complex could actually be bad in the long run. 2K may be finding this out the hard way this year.

Watching Chris Smoove play the game and there is some really poor AI at times. I think I will wait for more patches or just continue to play 2K16 for awhile.

[Dione2014]

Re: Videos: CPU transition defense and ACE have little if any logic

Transition is maybe not the best way to demonstrate the whole spectrum of AI failure in the game, because in transition, the game routinely ignores ratings and physics and IQ across the board. That's a problem in and of itself, but the player ratings and AI are more active in half court.

Now, half court defense is also a hot mess with the way rotations work (or don't) and how frequently immune they are to management or correction by user settings. ACE on? Please, that's a formula to be COOKED by your teammates' defense.

And of course we STILL have no explanations of how the in game defensive adjustments actually work and interact with defensive settings in the pause menu. It's insane they would even bother to put all this stuff in the game and not explain it, unless of course they know it's all broken so why try to explain it (quite possible, actually).

There's so much not working with AI and defense in this game pre patch 5 that it really is not fun to play. They promised and marketed user control this year and yet we have neither control on the stick input level consistently (animations and nerfs) or on the strategic game management level (defensive settings and adjustments).

This is why I stopped playing almost 2 weeks ago. We'll see if I come back post patch, though I have still tried to answer questions in the freelance wiki to help people who still play and enjoy the game.

I'll be honest with you brotha. If patch 1.05 doesn't fix this game i Simply can not deal with the game anymore. You were 100 percent correct for putting the game down. It's barely playable in the state it is now. It's literately giving me headaches.

[jxelite2430]

Re: Videos: CPU transition defense and ACE have little if any logic

I'll be honest with you brotha. If patch 1.05 doesn't fix this game i Simply can not deal with the game anymore. You were 100 percent correct for putting the game down. It's barely playable in the state it is now. It's literately giving me headaches.

2k17 is one of the smoothest games I've played in terms of player movement but it's also the only 2k I've played where I've thought about buying the previous years version used and downloading updated rosters because the CPU IQ is so weak this year

[HowDareI]

Re: Videos: CPU transition defense and ACE have little if any logic

All I know is I'm real old school when it comes to basketball.

When I play online it's usually against my one friend and we just pick random teams and play each other.

Not bragging, really, but quick games (in 16) were easy to me. I played random guys online, I'd win as my Sixers and it'd be not much competition.

I love to use bigmen and set up the game from the post. A lot of guys have no clue how to stop this. And in real life bigs are really unstoppable these days due to not having as many skilled ones to defend the elite guys.

So I've noticed this year I'm almost forced to get into a shootout to win.
My defenders just leave threes open way too often. I try, but at the end of the day I cannot control all five guys on the court. I have some defensive settings that usually work but on the break or in transition they get jumbled still.

When the game ends and both teams consistently shoot over 50% from beyond I see a problem. Especially when it's over 25 shots taken from beyond.
My bigs aren't a factor when I need 3's and not 2's. It makes the game less enjoyable from this standpoint when I can't even play how I like.

I don't even wanna go online and play the Warriors over and over.

The way defense is setup where certain guys just become lost and leave shooters open also gives me major headaches...I try to ignore it because at the end of the day the game looks and plays pretty good but man some things just make me turn it off for hours.

[de_jesus]

Re: Videos: CPU transition defense and ACE have little if any logic

I can protect the perimeter with a lot of manual control over all players, but I can NOT for the life of me protect the rim. Defenders are always out of position, they don't box out, and don't really fight for rebounds. And when they do contest a shot it seems like it always goes in. My Opposing Field Goal % in the paint is near 73%. I just can't stop big men in this game.

I have tried everything but I can't find a way to make it work

[jxelite2430]

Re: Videos: CPU transition defense and ACE have little if any logic

All I know is I'm real old school when it comes to basketball.

When I play online it's usually against my one friend and we just pick random teams and play each other.

Not bragging, really, but quick games (in 16) were easy to me. I played random guys online, I'd win as my Sixers and it'd be not much competition.

I love to use bigmen and set up the game from the post. A lot of guys have no clue how to stop this. And in real life bigs are really unstoppable these days due to not having as many skilled ones to defend the elite guys.

So I've noticed this year I'm almost forced to get into a shootout to win.
My defenders just leave threes open way too often. I try, but at the end of the day I cannot control all five guys on the court. I have some defensive settings that usually work but on the break or in transition they get jumbled still.

When the game ends and both teams consistently shoot over 50% from beyond I see a problem. Especially when it's over 25 shots taken from beyond.
My bigs aren't a factor when I need 3's and not 2's. It makes the game less enjoyable from this standpoint when I can't even play how I like.

I don't even wanna go online and play the Warriors over and over.

The way defense is setup where certain guys just become lost and leave shooters open also gives me major headaches...I try to ignore it because at the end of the day the game looks and plays pretty good but man some things just make me turn it off for hours.

"Not bragging, really, but quick games (in 16) were easy to me. I played random guys online. "

It's always been easier online because you have to use default sliders so I'm not talking about that. When I play offline (which is 90% of time) and I crank my CPu DEF awareness to 100 and help defense to 90, in years past that would be suicide on HOF, this year I don't even have to make any defensive adjustments or call plays to win by 15-20+ every game against CPU.

"My bigs aren't a factor when I need 3's and not 2's. The way defense is setup where certain guys just become lost and leave shooters open also gives me major headaches "
WHich is a shame because bigs play really well on 2k17 with the drop steps and more accurate timing mechanism with their jump hooks but the way shooters are left open this year you have to play outside-in not inside-out this year. I don't mind defensive lapses every now and then especially by lower IQ defenders but I get the same defensive lapses against the SPurs and Kawhi Leonard as I do against TJ warren on the Suns

[jxelite2430]

Re: Videos: CPU transition defense and ACE have little if any logic

I can protect the perimeter with a lot of manual control over all players, but I can NOT for the life of me protect the rim. Defenders are always out of position, they don't box out, and don't really fight for rebounds. And when they do contest a shot it seems like it always goes in. My Opposing Field Goal % in the paint is near 73%. I just can't stop big men in this game.

I have tried everything but I can't find a way to make it work

"I can protect the perimeter with a lot of manual control over all players"
Me too but I'm talking about playing against CPu defenders on opposing teams.

[Graphik]

Re: Videos: CPU transition defense and ACE have little if any logic

Till the patch fixes it, I just play as my Big Men on defense. It alleviate the full court passes and the shody defense in the paint.

[tt500]

Re: Videos: CPU transition defense and ACE have little if any logic

2k gotta stop marketing the whole pre-tipoff edition and cutting down the dev cycle. They added a lot of bells and whistles but none of that is really showing but all the flaws are starting to surface.

Didn't they say there's new paint animations where bigs battle inside. That must of been bugged and removed cause I don't see any of them battling for rebounds when the opponents big is casually getting into the paint with no contact.

They got all those new ace poe but they don't even work with the way offense is being played online.