"Athleticism" Attribute

[VAWereWolf65]

I think if we had just a regular "Athleticism" attribute alongside the other stuff like speed, acceleration, etc. than it would make the game look and feel more balanced. You look at guys like Russell Westbrook and Blake Griffin who don't have very high vertical leaps, but they're just so explosive and athletically gifted that they just play so physical and "athletically". Guys like Russell Westbrook, Blake Griffin and Deandre Jordan would have very high "Athleticism" attributes and guys like Ricky Rubio, Kosta Koufos, John Stockton, Nikola Jokic and Zaza Pachulia would have a lot lower "Athleticism" attributes. I don't really know how to explain it, but it was just a thought I had.

Edit: Sorry everyone for the confusion but what i meant here was a rating for how explosive a player is

[SonicMage]

Re: "Athleticism" Attribute

No. Please, no. Ratings should be becoming less vague, not more vague.

[VAWereWolf65]

Re: "Athleticism" Attribute

No. Please, no. Ratings should be becoming less vague, not more vague.

What do you mean by less or more vague

[JustCallMeSleepy]

Re: "Athleticism" Attribute

"You look at guys like Russell Westbrook and Blake Griffin who don't have very high vertical leaps..."

Are we talking about Russell Westbrook from Oklahoma City and Blake Griffin from the Clippers?

[VAWereWolf65]

"Athleticism" Attribute

"You look at guys like Russell Westbrook and Blake Griffin who don't have very high vertical leaps..."

Are we talking about Russell Westbrook from Oklahoma City and Blake Griffin from the Clippers?

Yes. They both have less than 36 inch verticals. Not very high. At least not to the degree of a guy like Harrison Barnes who has a 44 inch vertical.

[Comduklakis]

Re: "Athleticism" Attribute

No. Please, no. Ratings should be becoming less vague, not more vague.

exacty. they already have to many things like "intangibles" to manipulate ratings to get the desired overall. it would be better if we knew exactly what did what so players could be adjusted. But until they figure out someway to create rotations, and create value for FA, trades, draft, contracts, etc without relying on overall so much, we shall have vague ratings to be manipulated.

[DC]

Re: "Athleticism" Attribute

No. Please, no. Ratings should be becoming less vague, not more vague.

[mb625]

Re: "Athleticism" Attribute

What do you mean by less or more vague

The vague ratings (i.e. the aforementioned "Intangibles" rating) are simply not quantifiable. You can easily determine shooting ratings based on FG%/FT%, you can easily determine rebounding, steal, passing and blocking ratings by statistics. Speed and jumping are also easily quantifiable, but "Athleticism" is not.

It would be an arbitrary ranking based on the "eye test" and who knows what it would effect? You said it yourself when you said you didn't know how to explain it. No one would know how to explain it, meaning that no one would know what it would do or how it manifested itself in game.

[VAWereWolf65]

Re: "Athleticism" Attribute

The vague ratings (i.e. the aforementioned "Intangibles" rating) are simply not quantifiable. You can easily determine shooting ratings based on FG%/FT%, you can easily determine rebounding, steal, passing and blocking ratings by statistics. Speed and jumping are also easily quantifiable, but "Athleticism" is not.

It would be an arbitrary ranking based on the "eye test" and who knows what it would effect? You said it yourself when you said you didn't know how to explain it. No one would know how to explain it, meaning that no one would know what it would do or how it manifested itself in game.

Intangibles is simply an easy way to modify a players overall. You can tell by running tests and what not that it has no affect on how the player plays

[mb625]

Re: "Athleticism" Attribute

Intangibles is simply an easy way to modify a players overall. You can tell by running tests and what not that it has no affect on how the player plays

That's all well and good, but you're asking for a rating that is equally unquantifiable to have an actual bearing on how players do play. You're not suggesting a mere overall modifier here, unless I misunderstood the first post. Therein lies the difference.

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[turty11]

Re: "Athleticism" Attribute

If 2k adds anymore ratings or tendencies you can't put data behind it's going to be very very bad. Athleticism is already a rating..it's just broken into sub ratings in speed very and so on...there literally is an athleticism rating that had a letter grade in the simplified view for rosters, or it was at least there in every previous year.

[SonicMage]

Re: "Athleticism" Attribute

What do you mean by less or more vague

What I mean is that "athleticism" is a blanket term. All those categories you mentioned like speed, acceleration, vertical, etc.; those all fall under the general term "Athleticism". And they're all great specifics, when summed together, that help paint a clear picture about the athleticism of an individual player. So why do you think there should also be an Athleticism attribute alongside these other more specific ones? Are you trying to say there are other facets of athleticism not covered under the ratings that already exist? You already mentioned vertical leap, but doesn't there already exist an attribute called Vertical that is responsible for that differentiation? If you are saying that there are elements missing, then why not just create more individual ratings to cover those topics, like 2K did this year by adding Speed With Ball, rather than try to make one single catch-all rating? It's the same issue I take with Intangibles. Usually when a sports reporter or other "expert" mentions a player's intangibility, a.k.a he/she does "the little things", it's a buzz word they throw out there because they don't have the time and/or the knowledge to properly articulate the specifics about what makes that player important to the team or to their teammates. When you read the opinions around these forums about what Intangibles actually means, usually it's to highlight abilities covered by other ratings, like diving for loose balls/offensive rebounds (Hustle) or trade value (the overall rating). Pardon me, but it's all bull___. An invention of an athleticism rating would achieve the same mass confusion and same cyclical discussions about its purpose because the term itself is too vague.

The other problem I have with it, in agreement with another comment here, is that athleticism by itself is *unquantifiable*. This becomes a problem for someone like me, who has spent the better part of two decades coming up with methods and software for translating real-life statistics into data models to accurately explain exactly how NBA players operate and the extent of their abilities. This all touches into the continuing analytics movement that has been taking place in the NBA. Say you're an NBA GM, and a scout approaches you with the information that one college player is more "athletic" than another. Wouldn't you want more specific data, like perhaps results from the combine, or maybe quotes from previous coaches that speak to their various athletic abilities individually?

I hope that better explains my position.

[JustCallMeSleepy]

Re: "Athleticism" Attribute

Yes. They both have less than 36 inch verticals. Not very high. At least not to the degree of a guy like Harrison Barnes who has a 44 inch vertical.

Wow, I did not know that. Thanks bro, I always just figured through eye test that they had crazy bounce.

[SonicMage]

Re: "Athleticism" Attribute

Wow, I did not know that. Thanks bro, I always just figured through eye test that they had crazy bounce.

They do. Blake's max vert is one of the highest amongst big men, around the same amount of ups as Dwight Howard (you remember the "sticker dunk"). By comparison, Deandre Jordan's max vert is 30.5".

Westbrook is not as high as other guards of comparable size, but he makes up for it with a long reach and a style of play that has him often aggressively attacking the basket and going for offensive boards.

It's really tough to tell what their verticals are now, though. Players tend to strengthen their legs and/or bulk up, or get injured, throughout the length of their careers which can affect their hops positively or negatively, and we only get measurements from before their rookie seasons. For instance, with Blake, we know he injured his knee during his first year, and the medical staff claimed that his knee was stronger coming out of the injury than it ever was before. I wish teams would release information before every season about athletic and body metrics of their roster, but I can understand from a competitive strategy perspective why they don't.

[VAWereWolf65]

Re: "Athleticism" Attribute

Wow, I did not know that. Thanks bro, I always just figured through eye test that they had crazy bounce.

Yea you would think they would be a lot higher. Blake Griffins is 35.5 i believe and Russell Westbrooks is around 36. Then there's Deandre way down there around 30 or 30.5 lol. But that's why i'm saying we should have an attribute for that.