2K18: Blocks/Steal Timing

[strawberryshortcake]

Quote: Originally Posted by Kushmir

Spoiler Yeah the video was pretty long--I almost didn't want to link it but its a good example of how bad steal spam is currently--and how the game doesn't punish bad block timing. We're on the same team--we just have a different approach.....you'd like a lot of the game's aspects to supercede rating, I just believe ratings provide a necessary and healthy cap and range. They're the thing that prevents Ben Simmons and other non-shooters from shooting a good % from outside and allows strategy like giving him open jump-shots. Now keep in mind what i'm talking about is limited to PNO where actual NBA players/teams have static ratings and we have tons of data on their production and abilities. I think modes like MyPlayer and PRO-AM would be OK with the User Agency you're describing. I've never been a "The ball went through his hand!" guy....I've played these games long enough to know the physics and body interactions are going to be full of holes. I prefer good interactions and balanced gameplay that rewards skill and strategy, if they're good I don't require the perfect physics--still, i'm not discounting your POV. I just focus on balance, scale and removing exploits. To me skill is equal parts shot timing and being smart enough to have JJ Reddick shoot a last second 18 footer as opposed to Blake Griffin.....and not allowing Joel Embiid to get a block on the way down because gameplay can't reward my failure and bad timing. 94 block rating be damned lol. The game holding us accountable for bad timing/using the wrong player on plays like this is important: Because as we know...good timing nets this guy a steal--so bad timing has to have negative outcomes.

The thing is I do certainly want to see our digital 2k basketball essentially replicate its real life counterpart. Curry's digital rating should reflect his real life rating. But the thing is, I see a difference between video game translation of "shooting" and "timing for blocks/steals;" at least that's how my mind processes it.

Shooting ... ratings will definitely matter. Deandre Jordan is not going to start dropping 3s.

Blocks/steals ... ratings? ... how do you implement that when it's defined by two objects colliding (i.e. hand and ball, or body part and ball). How do you get "rating" and "timing for blocks/steals" to coexist on the same playing field if the user times his block/steal within the proper window. Do we let the "steal/block" movie play out dictated entirely by rating and have no influence with the controller?

Should it be like the football video game "Backbreaker" where one doesn't even have to press the steal or jump button to make an interception. The gamer simply maneuvers the defender in front of the football and his rating will determine if he gets an interception or not.

Ratings should obviously be the primary determining factor for shooting -- it doesn't involve two objects colliding. Shooting is independent from external forces to a certain extent. You can put up shots all day in the gym and you'd make a certain percentage. That tells you how good of a shooter you may be. Add in the element of a defender and that changes your shooting percentage. But when it comes to blocking/stealing, the user has button input. Trust me, I do see if from your point of view, and part of me do like everything that you've brought up. My biggest gripe is the unrealistic swipe and lunge and slow to recover animation. Note: once again, I barely even ever use the steal button, so it's not me complaining about the slow recovery when I play, but just that the slow recovery after a swipe simply isn't realistic. I would rather the recovery be fast, but there is that split microsecond momentum shift where the defender is caught off guard and the ball handler is able to pass. In other words, they need a better "reach I teach" animation.

[ataman5]

Well put! Definitely needs a lot of improvement..

[Kushmir]

Quote: Originally Posted by strawberryshortcake

Should it be like the football video game "Backbreaker" where one doesn't even have to press the steal or jump button to make an interception. The gamer simply maneuvers the defender in front of the football and his rating will determine if he gets an interception or not.

I get what you're saying...and we're alike, I don't go for a bunch of steals either. IMO both should be timing based for success whereas that "success rate" is determined by rating. To me thats equal parts skill and rating. IMO the window for a shot block is right after the user has released the ball. Too early (again--IMO) is a contact foul while too late can be that or run the risk of a goal-tend.

To me even if I get Gobert and have horrible timing I should not be successful blocking shots. Elite guys will probably have a somewhat larger window re: when they can attack the ball but success will ultimately require skill. IMO steals should be the same way, the ball is "free" during certain periods--if I time my steal for that period I should then have success based on my rating.

An example might be an elite ball-thief like Draymond (85) with good timing might get 6-7 steals in 20 attempts. Which may seem low but keep in mind how rare on-ball steals are. Giving guys a success rate thats too high will break the game....especially when you start to consider users with elite skill--who is who you have to tune your game for. Tuning your competitive game for average user is folly. If the average user can throw for 300yds in a Madden game the elite guy will throw for 1000.

[Rockie_Fresh88]

guys online make dumb plays. They spam dribble moves in situations where they should lose the ball but don't . They also take horrible shots , shots that should be blocked.

I know someone guys want a realistic number of steals and blocks per game . But if my opponent is taking an unrealistic amount of dumb shots and dribble moves he should be punished.

[Kushmir]

Quote: Originally Posted by Rockie_Fresh88

guys online make dumb plays. They spam dribble moves in situations where they should lose the ball but don't . They also take horrible shots , shots that should be blocked. I know someone guys want a realistic number of steals and blocks per game . But if my opponent is taking an unrealistic amount of dumb shots and dribble moves he should be punished.

Agreed. Keep in mind each play is individual--on the first page I mentioned how I played Minny user who had 10 blocks, afterward I looked at the game trying to find bad blocks and there were really only two. He was just good at shot-blocking and used Towns/Dieng and handled his business. The video I linked has a guy controlling Towns just crushing my shot in the first minute...no reasonable person has an issue with that play. Good Timing + Good Rating = High Success Rate.

I agree bad decisions should be punished as well. Thats the overall theme of this thread...bad shots/dribble moves by your opponent just mean you'll have a higher number of blocks and steals with good timing--not that you'll get one every possession, or even every other possession.

[keshunleon]

This is a great discussion!

A player's position, rating, and timing should play a huge role in steals and blocks.

USER vs CPU

It kills me when I see a player that has low steal and low block attempts going for blocks and steals often. Players will be out of position or behind the player yet will get a block. Sometimes reaching through a body part to do it.

I don't know how many times my player's hand or fingers go through the ball with no steal, deflection or block that leads to a bucket.

[Kushmir]

Quote: Originally Posted by keshunleon

I don't know how many times my player's hand or fingers go through the ball with no steal, deflection or block that leads to a bucket.

I agree with the first part but I learned a long time ago that the physics of the game will never be perfect--sometimes they'll be bad, frankly. What i'm more concerned with? "Is the game balanced well and are player limited by their strengths and weaknesses?" It shouldn't matter how good a user controlling Seth Curry's timing is....he should still be riddled with fouls going for chase-down blocks. He's too limited by his rating.

I'm not saying he won't get one...but he'll use up more than his share of fouls trying to get it.

[strawberryshortcake]

Quote: Originally Posted by Kushmir

I agree with the first part but I learned a long time ago that the physics of the game will never be perfect--sometimes they'll be bad, frankly. What i'm more concerned with? "Is the game balanced well and are player limited by their strengths and weaknesses?" It shouldn't matter how good a user controlling Seth Curry's timing is....he should still be riddled with fouls going for chase-down blocks. He's too limited by his rating. I'm not saying he won't get one...but he'll use up more than his share of fouls trying to get it.

I'm going to address the above quote first before I address your earlier post because it'll make more sense this way.

Small detour. I've seen youtube breakdowns of NFL2k5 and Madden regarding ball tangibility during tip passes, interceptions, completed passes. NFL2k5 respected the ball being a tangible physical object and the outcome truly dictated if a secondary object (arm, hand, limb, torso, head, bodypart) makes contact. Madden on the other hand, ball collision physics isn't fully respected to "create" an outcome because the "ratings" or "situational ratings" already predetermined if it was going to be an interception, completed pass, etc.

The stance of saying that ball collision physics isn't always going to be perfect should however be a concerning matter and addressed. Taking ball collision physics out of the equation "to fit a certain outcome" brings forth the idea of "pre-determined" outcomes. This pass due to "situational rating" will be an interception; this pass due to "situational rating" will be a touchdown or completed pass. This will be a blocked kick because "situational rating" already predetermined the outcome, resulting in losing a game or winning a game depending on the team in question. It doesn't matter if the ball morphs around the limb or goes completely through the limb. The predetermined outcome takes precedent. Ratings taking precedent.

Keep the above concern in mind when reading my below responses.

Quote: Originally Posted by Kushmir

I get what you're saying...and we're alike, I don't go for a bunch of steals either. IMO both should be timing based for success whereas that "success rate" is determined by rating. To me thats equal parts skill and rating. To me, the window for a shot block is right after the user has released the ball. Too early (again--IMO) is a contact foul while too late can be that or run the risk of a goal-tend.

The "window of opportunity for success of a block" limited to right after the user has released the ball straddles a grey area. What is your definition for "after the user has released the ball"? Is the ball still in contact with the shooter's finger tips?

It's a grey area because the physical nature and real basketball situation says a block can happen with the ball still fully engaged with the palms, any part of the ball still in contact with the fingers, when the ball is 5 inches off the finger tips, when the ball is 1 foot, 2 foot, 3 foot, etc. from the release point, when the ball is still in the shooters hand as he goes up for the shot but isn't at the apex of his release point (the shooters arm could still be in an L shaped position versus arm in a straight position). Limiting the window of opportunity to just "after the user has released the ball" takes away real world blocking opportunities that truly happens in real basketball, or simulation basketball.

Quote: Originally Posted by Kushmir

To me even if I get Gobert and have horrible timing I should not be successful blocking shots. Elite guys will probably have a somewhat larger window re: when they can attack the ball but success will ultimately require skill. IMO steals should be the same way, the ball is "free" during certain periods--if I time my steal for that period I should then have success based on my rating. An example might be an elite ball-thief like Draymond (85) with good timing might get 6-7 steals in 20 attempts. Which may seem low but keep in mind how rare on-ball steals are. Giving guys a success rate thats too high will break the game....especially when you start to consider users with elite skill--who is who you have to tune your game for. Tuning your competitive game for average user is folly. If the average user can throw for 300yds in a Madden game the elite guy will throw for 1000.

With regards to steal, the above concept regarding blocks also applies. A dribble involves the ball making contact with the hands and ground. The distance between the hand height and ground is the window of opportunity for steal. Some individuals dribble high, others dribble closer to the ground. Do we neglect the 2k ball tangibility if the user times his steal perfectly? Do we implement Madden's lack of ball tangibility or questionable ball tangibility to make ratings the primary determining factor?

EDIT: Regarding Madden's passing yard 300 vs 1000. This involves the interaction between WR/DB and their respective catching ratings as well as QB accuracy. A bit different than "blocking or stealing" to a certain extent.