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Real vs Balance?

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Old 08-05-2017, 05:44 PM   #57
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Re: Real vs Balance?

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Originally Posted by El_Poopador
I have not seen a single chase down block in 2k17 since I bought it. It's actually quite frustrating to not see things that happen somewhat regularly in the NBA.
What the hell ? Do you not play online ? I see 1-2 a quarter in the pro am.

If you play offline CPU isn't as aggressive when going for chase down blocks .
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Old 08-05-2017, 05:56 PM   #58
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Re: Real vs Balance?

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Originally Posted by El_Poopador
I have not seen a single chase down block in 2k17 since I bought it. It's actually quite frustrating to not see things that happen somewhat regularly in the NBA.

He's referring to user chase down blocks. I've had this discussion with him a couple weeks back. He wants essentially gameplay to reflect real NBA percentages. Lebron, Kawahi, Durant, and the like to have the ability to do chase down blocks while point guards and non-blockers to get penalized for attempting to do chase down block because they're seldom happen.

... even if the user is in position and times his jump, more often than not he wants non-blockers to get fouled called on them.

I understand what he is saying but I don't fully agree when sports is about "positioning" and "timing." I don't fully agree but I understand the reasoning behind wanting what he wants.

Steph Curry is not going to block Lebron dunking in real life because Lebron is pretty explosive going for a dunk, plus Lebron's grip strength on the ball is strong, plus the fact that Lebron going for a dunk is quicker than Curry could have anticipated. In 2k, Steph Curry has the chance to block Lebron. The user's ability to see the entire court and all scenarios, the user is able to anticipate better.

Chase down blocks: My solution would be to add in a "grip strength" or something to the ratings where by 99 would negate most likely anyone trying to do chase down block... or something to that effect. Just something, but to completely take away "positioning" and "timing" .... I don't know.


The same goes for steals, the highest number of steals per game for a team from 2016-2017 is about 9 steals per game (Golden State). But the highest number of steal per individual was around 2.0 (Draymond Green, John Wall and Chris Paul); number of steal per game for individual range from 1.0 - 2.0 a game. He wants steal spammers to get penalized, essentially negating "timing" and "positioning." Again, I understand what he is saying, but I don't fully agree. This is not about me either because I personally don't use the steal button at all. I simply use positioning to defend.


Steal Spammers: My "solution" was for 2k to implement some type of button as a "push off" button to create space, the longer you hold the button the more likely you'd get called for a push off. A small tap and you'll be able to use your off hand to create space, negating these steal spammer.



And one other thing: If we're going strictly by NBA real percentages (which again, isn't a bad thing) and negating "positioning" and "timing," why not also remove the "shot meter" as well. Simply do away with green releases, and go full blown NBA shot percentages. Then people don't have to worry about missing open green releases. The answer would be well "It's not about green releases anymore, NBA.com stats says you're only making 38% of your shots from X spot on the court and your "myplayer" only has a shooting percentage of 35%"


One last note: if they wanted to implement what Kushmir suggest, I wouldn't have much of an issue. I would be fine with it. I'm pretty much fine with either method. I simply think the current method has merit. I would simply adapt to either method.
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Old 08-05-2017, 06:34 PM   #59
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Re: Real vs Balance?

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Originally Posted by MarkWilliam
Things like doing 3 dribble moves in a row consumes bulk stamina..... yeah..... not my favorite.

IRL an NBA player can do 100 dribble moves and not lose bulk stamina. These are peak fitness athletes here.

To me, the answer for balance would be (same as real life);

A heavy crossover dribbler would essentially lead to defenders realizing this player over dribbles. No crossovers would be effective and the defender would not bite (speaking for AI defenders).

Of course, when I play the AI, I will be penalized with stamina..... in the name of online balance.

Hmmm......
Excellent point. It seems like the "balance" that's needed for online negatively impacts the game offline. I don't play online much so I want as much control as possible and for the ai to use bball iq.

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Old 08-05-2017, 06:54 PM   #60
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Re: Real vs Balance?

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Originally Posted by Rockie_Fresh88
What the hell ? Do you not play online ? I see 1-2 a quarter in the pro am.



If you play offline CPU isn't as aggressive when going for chase down blocks .


Nope lol. I'm an offline player. I like to play realistic basketball, which doesn't really happen online in my experience.

Fast breaks aren't great against the CPU, unfortunately, so chase down blocks aren't really a thing. Even in the rare occasions where I think I'm in position, I never get the right animation for the block. And the CPU never goes for chase downs.


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Old 08-05-2017, 07:58 PM   #61
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Re: Real vs Balance?

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Originally Posted by El_Poopador
I think the real issue is that the way those things are represented by the game are incredibly unrealistic, and in many cases, caused by the user-controlled player doing something that was not expected based on the input. When you attempt a 3/4 court pass, for example, it's more likely that the pass will be short, causing the receiving player to have the slow down and come back to the ball, rather than the ball sailing out of bounds, which is the result 100% of the time in 2k when it is not successful.

When a player throws the ball out of bounds on a 6-foot pass to a teammate who is standing still, it's frustrating for the user because it didn't appear to be a miscue; rather, just a blatant bad pass. And when, as a user, you don't actually have any control over the aim of the pass, it just becomes an irritant, because you had no control over it.

I can't count how many times I've turned the ball over because the pass I made didn't go where I wanted it to. Usually it happens when I see an open player, I try to pass to that player, and they randomly cut into the defense, causing the pass to be picked off. In a situation like that, I would rather the pass go to where I expected, even if the player I wanted to pass it to isn't there to catch it and it goes out of bounds. The result would be the same (a turnover), but it would be much easier to swallow as the user because it actually comes across as a miscommunication rather than the game misreading my intention.

The same can be said for things like steals/reaching fouls. There are times when the ballhandler is not protecting the ball at all, or doesn't "see" that I am nearby with a clear view at the ball. If I go for the steal in that situation and end up wrapping him up for no reason, I'm going to be upset, because it wasn't what I wanted to do. I just wanted to poke the ball loose and punish the player for leaving it unguarded.

It's a balancing act for sure, but the majority of the frustration comes from the game misinterpreting the user's intentions.
100% of the time is not true.

And a lot of those can be avoided in every mode other than MyCareer/MyPark or QuickGame/Pro-Am.

The game as-is, is meant to provide a challenge for you (while still making you feel like your playing as or against real NBA players), not to represent reality, hence why every difficulty is more sliders up for the CPU, more sliders down for the User. That's not sim by any means, but that is changing the difficulty.

One of the biggest sliders that legitimately has a change in gameplay to me, is Hands.

A pass caught on a wide-open fastbreak, or a cut-for-a-three, or even a handoff... with that slider set low (or attribute) now may be fumbled, allowing defenses to get to catch up or get set. Looks especially great on a 3/4 court pass, guy catches it with one hand but can't get control and now at least my PG has a chance at cutting him off to the basket.

Increasing pass accuracy etc. You have nearly every tool you need to make the game play how YOU feel resembles the real thing. Literally think of the thousands of options you have between every individual attribute/tendency/playbook/play style/coach style/slider for everyone in the game.

Better explanation of what happened on the play (miscue, etc) like I stated before would absolutely enhance gameplay.

Teams usually have around 50% of their turnovers... NOT coming from steals. I think the league average was something like 7 steals per game to 13 turnovers a game.

So how do those happen? Errant passes/charging fouls/dribbling out of bounds.

Community has an extreme dislike for errant passes, but numbers don't lie. Again, the representation of the how and why, well if an errant non-stolen pass isn't what the User WANTED to happen on that play, the User is typically unhappy.

You see every now and then in the NBA, Player A inbounds the ball and player B throws the ball back to the still out of bounds player A for a turnover lol. That would make players furiouuuuuus. Happens though. Passes to the 3rd row. Happens every other game.

Watch a Nets vs Knicks game, and watch how atrocious those teams play. These are the best basketball players in the world, and those teams play terribly lol. But they're not going balls-to-the-wall "I'm playing to win!" every single game like the User is, for them it's a Wednesday afternoon game in January. THAT'S NOT SIM because no user plays that way. But that's reality.

I saw the Knicks Offensively Out-rebound the Bulls 18-2 at halftime and was just thinking of all the rage "not realistic" "game is cheating me" comments I'd be hearing. Truth is, reality is LESS sim than the community thinks. And that's the problem.

Curry goes 0-11 from 3pt against the worst team in basketball. Reality. Not sim.

Last edited by MoodMuzik; 08-05-2017 at 08:11 PM.
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Old 08-05-2017, 08:52 PM   #62
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Re: Real vs Balance?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoodMuzik
100% of the time is not true.

And a lot of those can be avoided in every mode other than MyCareer/MyPark or QuickGame/Pro-Am.

The game as-is, is meant to provide a challenge for you (while still making you feel like your playing as or against real NBA players), not to represent reality, hence why every difficulty is more sliders up for the CPU, more sliders down for the User. That's not sim by any means, but that is changing the difficulty.

One of the biggest sliders that legitimately has a change in gameplay to me, is Hands.

A pass caught on a wide-open fastbreak, or a cut-for-a-three, or even a handoff... with that slider set low (or attribute) now may be fumbled, allowing defenses to get to catch up or get set. Looks especially great on a 3/4 court pass, guy catches it with one hand but can't get control and now at least my PG has a chance at cutting him off to the basket.

Increasing pass accuracy etc. You have nearly every tool you need to make the game play how YOU feel resembles the real thing. Literally think of the thousands of options you have between every individual attribute/tendency/playbook/play style/coach style/slider for everyone in the game.

Better explanation of what happened on the play (miscue, etc) like I stated before would absolutely enhance gameplay.

Teams usually have around 50% of their turnovers... NOT coming from steals. I think the league average was something like 7 steals per game to 13 turnovers a game.

So how do those happen? Errant passes/charging fouls/dribbling out of bounds.

Community has an extreme dislike for errant passes, but numbers don't lie. Again, the representation of the how and why, well if an errant non-stolen pass isn't what the User WANTED to happen on that play, the User is typically unhappy.

You see every now and then in the NBA, Player A inbounds the ball and player B throws the ball back to the still out of bounds player A for a turnover lol. That would make players furiouuuuuus. Happens though. Passes to the 3rd row. Happens every other game.

Watch a Nets vs Knicks game, and watch how atrocious those teams play. These are the best basketball players in the world, and those teams play terribly lol. But they're not going balls-to-the-wall "I'm playing to win!" every single game like the User is, for them it's a Wednesday afternoon game in January. THAT'S NOT SIM because no user plays that way. But that's reality.

I saw the Knicks Offensively Out-rebound the Bulls 18-2 at halftime and was just thinking of all the rage "not realistic" "game is cheating me" comments I'd be hearing. Truth is, reality is LESS sim than the community thinks. And that's the problem.

Curry goes 0-11 from 3pt against the worst team in basketball. Reality. Not sim.
I may have misspoken, but in my own experience, that is what happens when a long distance pass fails. It is always thrown over the receiver's head out of bounds, whether myself or the CPU throws the pass.

Again, I am not against the miscues by any means, but they need to do a better job with them. If something happens on the court that goes against my own input, then of course I'm going to be upset. I've only seen 1-2 charges in my time with 2k18, outside of the ones where the player extends their arms. But I rarely, if ever, see them because a defender got into position before the offensive player got there.

I had one just the other day where I was on a three on one break, and I was expecting my teammate to run to the corner or stop at the three point line, so I tried to pass to him for an open three. Instead, he cut towards the basket (and the lone defender), resulting in a turnover. As the user, I wanted to throw a pass to the perimeter, but the game decided that because my teammate was cutting, I wanted to hit him in stride. I would much rather the pass go where I want and end up out of bounds than the pass to go where I would never throw it, even though it's the same result. The difference is that the miscommunication of throwing it out of bounds is realistic, whereas the poor decision to throw a pass directly to the defender is not.

The miscommunication scenario does not exist in NBA 2k. Instead, you have errant passes for no reason, and that is the part that is frustrating. It feels like your player is not responding to your controller inputs.

I can't speak for anyone else, but personally, I would prefer realistic over what you defined as sim any day of the week. I want the game to replicate what I see on TV. I want it to be possible for Curry to go 0-11, and at the same time, I want it to be possible for a player like Lebron to catch fire and pull up for a three 5 times in a row and hit them, even though he's not known as a three point shooter.

Last edited by El_Poopador; 08-05-2017 at 08:54 PM.
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Old 08-06-2017, 10:08 AM   #63
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Re: Real vs Balance?

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Originally Posted by LD2k
Love is the player that comes to mind the most.

Also wanted to add, Lonzo won't be throwing a large amount of these per game. Tough thing to balance, we had a chat with the folks who were up yesterday about this topic. Interesting insight.


Wade and LeBron also throw them well

I'd rather this specific thing be in the game rather than not if the only reason it's not is to discourage exploiters. At the end of the day I feel like the success rate in 2k17 wasn't alarming. I even think ppl with HOF break starter got screwed over because I honestly can't tell a bronze between a HOF. Even taking it further I think pass accuracy matters more with full court passes and flashy passes because I have a very short athletic finisher center with playmaking maxed out(74 pass accuracy) and he seems to do everything my posts corer can do and my post scorer only has a 40 pass accuracy but I have flashy passer and break starter both on bronze.


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Old 08-06-2017, 11:49 AM   #64
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Re: Real vs Balance?

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Originally Posted by MoodMuzik
My man. At the same time, the Nuggets have to be able to beat the Warriors. Right? Pick any team and if you play the right way you win.

Cavs coming back from 20+ against the Pacers... rubberbanding? Or realism? Or sim? Or balance?

Tough stuff. But if you're a bad team... your team should be bad. And they should make mistakes EVEN IF you didn't directly make that mistake right?

Errant passes, too many fouls, losing the ball, bad shot selection, early shot selection. All of those things should, essentially be out of your control to a great extent, if you're Philly, Brooklyn, LA, right?

Not sim.
Bingo. Because DEN can beat GS....you just have to do a whole hell of alot right AND overcome the bad stuff that's inevitable lol.

2K16 was the most rewarding-but-challenging year i've ever had in sports gaming...but its what I signed up for, right? 2K finally did a great job showing talent disparity. The Sixers were so bad I had a losing record online (never happens--I usual win 60-70% of my games easy) but all of those things you mentioned (bad fouls, bad pass turnovers) played a role...lack of shot-makers was the coup de grace. I literally had to play a close-to-perfect game and seriously limit mistakes to win. Sometimes we'd do that and still lose The opponent also had to be worse than me. Playing someone equivalent in skill with a better team meant a loss 70-80% of the time....

And it should have--because worse teams should have to overcome adversity IMO.

We should welcome the subtle and nuanced ways they're using to separate teams. Better-team-just-makes-more-shots is sooooo 2005, people. The games are better when Lebron can't just And-One through your team and dunk 15 times a game.

That kind of gameplay with depth also allows Basketball IQ to factor into what we consider "skill". A friend of mine who plays with CHI (who's a much better "stick skill" guy than me) might have beat me once or twice in 20 games in 2K17...he still hasn't figured it out. I generally guard the SG but consistently baited him (he likes to go at the user defender) into beating me with Rondo by covering the PG. Now did he have some solid scoring games? sure. But authentic gameplay means Rondo is really limited in the ways he can beat you...Force him to beat you from the outside and by scoring (he's more of a facilitator) and it plays right into your hands. He's simply not going to shoot a good enough percentage to win games consistently. I consistently won games using strategies like this. Luckily the Sixers had two pretty good perimeter defenders (Cov and Henderson) ...and that gameplay is doubling-down on this kind of depth is something we should be super excited about.

When I get the ability to call a set play out of a timeout ITS ON. TRUST.
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