Real vs Balance?

[Kushmir]

Quote: Originally Posted by ffaacc03

but understand that until every cause/consecuence/counter can be implemented, balance alternatives have to be applied ... the trick is to consider them placeholders, temporary workarounds and not solutions, therefor never quitting on working on finally integrating the correct realistic solution into the next iteration, or the one after that, or the next, etc.

This is super important and the correct POV...the most important (and enlightening) thing a dev ever told me is that universal physics based systems that govern every interaction simply don't exist.

No game has an overriding system that ensures that each player interaction will play out like it would in real life...its a MYTH--marketing fluff.

A system has to exist for everything we want in the game and that can be very time consuming. Hence the temporary workarounds/place-holders that ffaacc03 mentioned...thats also the reason this "users will create balance" POV isn't based in fact...keep in mind we've had open/no rules gaming environments before. I was around in 2002 when the PS2 introduced online play for consoles. Solution based workarounds isn't a theory or them trying to ruin your experience...its a reaction derived from user-exploit driven gameplay that developers hadn't anticipated when online play was first introduced.

User created balance may sound good...but its not reality--what happens in most instances (and the actual evidence of what occured before) was chaos....and it WAS. NOT. PRETTY.

[MoodMuzik]

Quote: Originally Posted by Kushmir

This is super important and the correct POV...the most important (and enlightening) thing a dev ever told me is that universal physics based systems that govern every interaction simply don't exist. No game has an overriding system that ensures that each player interaction will play out like it would in real life...its a MYTH--marketing fluff. A system has to exist for everything we want in the game and that can be very time consuming. Hence the temporary workarounds/place-holders that ffaacc03 mentioned...thats also the reason this "users will create balance" POV isn't based in fact...keep in mind we've had open/no rules gaming environments before. I was around in 2002 when the PS2 introduced online play for consoles. Solution based workarounds isn't a theory or them trying to ruin your experience...its a reaction derived from user-exploit driven gameplay that developers hadn't anticipated when online play was first introduced. User created balance may sound good...but its not reality--what happens in most instances (and the actual evidence of what occured before) was chaos....and it WAS. NOT. PRETTY.

Exactly.

Why can't "user's create the balance"? Because cheese. Because exploits.

Because the player wants to win.

Sports games are different than shooters. They require more thought, more planning, more patience. Online shooters make run-and-gun the strategy for winning. Players apply that same tactic instilled in them from those first online games, into sports games.

Not equal.

But exploits, full court turbo, 5 outs, 1st quarter full court press, side to side cheese crossovers, those are your "users create the balance".

Look no further than the user themselves.

[Kushmir]

Quote: Originally Posted by MoodMuzik

Exactly. Why can't "user's create the balance"? Because cheese. Because exploits. Because the player wants to win. Sports games are different than shooters. They require more thought, more planning, more patience. Online shooters make run-and-gun the strategy for winning. Players apply that same tactic instilled in them from those first online games, into sports games. Not equal. But exploits, full court turbo, 5 outs, 1st quarter full court press, side to side cheese crossovers, those are your "users create the balance". Look no further than the user themselves.

Right? Just as a non-gameplay example I remember guys could pause on people in 2K3....i'm online killing this guy with AI and Derrick Coleman in 2K3 (first 2K game to have sweat, btw) and he just pauses the game...I was pissed so instead of quitting I just started cleaning the house...I figured he'll grow up after about 10 minutes or so. 2 Hours later the game is STILL PAUSED lol. I was like "naw i'm good--you want the win that bad you can have it"

[Barncore]

I much prefer realism over online balance, personally. But i look for NBA2k17 to be my little simulated NBA landscape that i play god with, so i operate offline.

[isdatyt]

Quote: Originally Posted by Kushmir

Right? Just as a non-gameplay example I remember guys could pause on people in 2K3....i'm online killing this guy with AI and Derrick Coleman in 2K3 (first 2K game to have sweat, btw) and he just pauses the game...I was pissed so instead of quitting I just started cleaning the house...I figured he'll grow up after about 10 minutes or so. 2 Hours later the game is STILL PAUSED lol. I was like "naw i'm good--you want the win that bad you can have it"

There is no limit to what some of these people will do to win and game devs have to account for that and that's always going to be an issue in every game. Even with these systems in place, they still find the cheese yearly, so while it's a losing battle, it's one that still has to be fought.

[MarkWilliam]

Some interesting points here about online.

As strictly an offlline guy it's hard not to think about the game that could be if online balance wasn't a priority.

Because of the things people will do to win, measures for balance need to be put in place. But who complains about these things if you're playing offline?

[infemous]

Quote: Originally Posted by Hustle Westbrook

Not sure what LD and that guy on Twitter are talking about but you can most definitely make that pass in 2K17.

forreal in walk on 25% of my assists are like that, if not more. especially since i got break starter and hustle rebounder on my point forward, those passes are routine tbh.

[infemous]

and to chime in to the discussion...

as has been said in the thread. Realism creates balance.

I think what this shows is that there needs to be dynamism in the Pro-Am players we can create.

Imagine being able to select from a range of available badges to an archetype.. so a playmaker could have dimer or breakstarter, ankle breaker or difficult shots.. etc. players would have to choose what they would want their player to be, while also being given the constraints that will create balance online.

Meanwhile, in normal head to head modes and offline, these should just be tied to ratings and badges like they currently are.

I think with a combination of rating and badge you should have access to elite animations and skills, and the rating will always determine it's successfulness.

Love could have 75 passing rating, but HOF breakstarter, meaning he has the ability to throw these touchdown passes, but doesn't do them super consistently, while Lonzo with a 90 passing rating and Gold breakstarter could do this consistently but maybe doesn't throw as beautiful a ball (until he proves he does)