Please Understand This About Overall Player Ratings

[timsmooth503pa]

Quote: Originally Posted by TeamBuilder

Overall Ratings Are Position-Centric NBA 2K games assign an overall rating to a player based on specific skill attributes whose significance to overall rating are weighted by assigned positions (PG, SG, SF, PF, and C). This means that the calculations for overall rating has a degree of dependence on which position a player is listed at. For example, point guards with higher passing stats are valued higher in the overall rating formula than centers with high passing stats. Player Example: Nikola Jokic, the center for the Nuggets, is a very skilled passer who is likely to have higher passing attributes than most centers. However, the game does not place significant overall rating value on passing attributes for centers. Instead, centers will boast a higher overall rating if they possess high attributes in rebounding and interior defense. For a player like Jokic, his true value on the court won't be represented accurately by an overall player rating because the overall rating calculation system in 2K doesn't value his passing enough - simply because Jokic is listed as a center. This means that Ricky Rubio's passing attributes carry far more weight in an overall player rating than Nikola Jokic's passing attributes, even though Jokic is such a vital playermaker in the Nuggets offense that he rivals opposing teams' point guards playmaking ability. Overall player rating isn't a big deal because it does not accurately represent a player's value in the game. If we had a system that truly values players' attributes on a 1:1 scale, regardless of position, then an overall rating would matter more. But to debate cross-positional overall ratings and say that point guard [x] should have a higher overall rating than power forward [y], or to say that certain players' overall rating make them overrated/underrated just doesn't really make much sense without questioning the current position-centric system of overall rating calculation that 2K implements.

good post and accurate to on my rosters i edit all attributes and tendencies to the exact point 2k ratings system is based on who they think the best players are and not by statistics but the crazy part is they have all the info to make it 100 percent real but they are scared of the backlash and my it still a video game fun but if they do just stats based on their scale as me analytically they would have more bench players better than starters and how their myleague is setup the bench players would want starter money as so on and so forth but i think they could fix the myleague setup they could go to the exact point rating like mines thats my worst feedback on my rosters is myleague but the gameplay is awesome

[Hustle Westbrook]

Individual attributes, height, tendencies and animations >>>>>>>

[isdatyt]

Quote: Originally Posted by TeamBuilder

Yeah, I'm actually pleased with the current trading for the past couple of years. It's harder than it used to be in the earlier 2000s 2K games, where the right series of trades could net you a super team. The CPU still makes some bad decisions sometimes, but user controlled trades require a bit more thought and are more challenging in general.

I just want the logic to improve in terms of what's best for the teams involved and for them to get rid of foolish offers like offering me an expiring role player for the rookie I drafted first overall.

Or how teams that are rebuilding need to be more receptive to trading away aging stars. In the last MyLeague I ran in 2K, the Grizzlies were listed as rebuilding, but refused to trade me Gasol without me essentially giving them the house, kids, and car. Any team that considers itself rebuild, gets rid of any big contracts they can in search of picks, young cheap talent, and expiring contracts to give them cap room. I offered Michael Porter Jr (82 OVR rookie) for Marc and they said forget about that. Nope in 2K, they want your best player for theirs, regardless of age or contract. No rebuilding team would every decline the best rookie in the league for a 33 year old center. It honestly was a dumb trade on my part but I didn't plan on going past year 3.

[jk31]

I understand what you're saying about position dependency of OVR ratings. Besides what everyone else here mentioned regards AI logic, my biggest problem with the released OVR ratings is, that they are just way too high all through the bench. Some bench players run around with 75+ ratings! I remember a time when a 76 ovr players was solid starting player. Now bench players have those kind of ratings...

[CDazzle91]

Completely agree about the overall being positional.

I'm starting to join the "Get Rid of Overall Ratings" camp. Especially when it comes to things like how the AI view trades in MyLeague and how humans value individual players. For instance, John Wall getting mad at his overall "only" being a 90... If there was no overall system, we could debate player attributes which seems to be a much more productive conversation as you can back most attributes up with stats and analytics and not compare Wall's overall to Kyries's but instead compare their skill sets (like you would in real life) and individual attribute values. Getting rid of overall ratings would also force the AI MyLeague logic to really factor in skillsets rather than just focusing on one number for trades, free agency, etc.

[SonicMage]

Quote: Originally Posted by CDazzle91

Completely agree about the overall being positional. I'm starting to join the "Get Rid of Overall Ratings" camp. Especially when it comes to things like how the AI view trades in MyLeague and how humans value individual players. For instance, John Wall getting mad at his overall "only" being a 90... If there was no overall system, we could debate player attributes which seems to be a much more productive conversation as you can back most attributes up with stats and analytics and not compare Wall's overall to Kyries's but instead compare their skill sets (like you would in real life) and individual attribute values. Getting rid of overall ratings would also force the AI MyLeague logic to really factor in skillsets rather than just focusing on one number for trades, free agency, etc.

I've been saying on these forums for over a decade now that overall ratings are not all they're cracked up to be, and the game is way too highly dependent on them. But I don't think they should be removed entirely.

What they do provide, is a brief glance at who *might* be better when comparing two players, especially for casual players who might not know the strengths of every single player in the league like us hardcore guys. But that's all it should be, is information to display, not something the system utilizes to make any kinds of decisions. To break a player's value down further, we have the grade system divided into categories like shooting, athleticism, rebounding, etc. These to me are more valuable, and should be exposed in a lot more areas of the game.

Forget archetypes, too, those are not as reliable as one would think. As someone who edits ratings for every player in the league on a regular basis, believe me when I say that the formulas for determining archetypes on a roster can be down right nonsense at times.

I'm glad you brought up John Wall, because he is a perfect example about how the position-based overall system breaks down when you get into the fine details. John Wall has always been a fantastic shot-blocker, but because he is a point guard, his 'Block' rating does not factor into his overall score *at all*. Go ahead and try it, edit the roster and put his Block rating all the way down to 25, his overall won't budge at all.

[CDazzle91]

Quote: Originally Posted by SonicMage

I've been saying on these forums for over a decade now that overall ratings are not all they're cracked up to be, and the game is way too highly dependent on them. But I don't think they should be removed entirely. What they do provide, is a brief glance at who *might* be better when comparing two players, especially for casual players who might not know the strengths of every single player in the league like us hardcore guys. But that's all it should be, is information to display, not something the system utilizes to make any kinds of decisions. To break a player's value down further, we have the grade system divided into categories like shooting, athleticism, rebounding, etc. These to me are more valuable, and should be exposed in a lot more areas of the game. Forget archetypes, too, those are not as reliable as one would think. As someone who edits ratings for every player in the league on a regular basis, believe me when I say that the formulas for determining archetypes on a roster can be down right nonsense at times. I'm glad you brought up John Wall, because he is a perfect example about how the position-based overall system breaks down when you get into the fine details. John Wall has always been a fantastic shot-blocker, but because he is a point guard, his 'Block' rating does not factor into his overall score *at all*. Go ahead and try it, edit the roster and put his Block rating all the way down to 25, his overall won't budge at all.

Yeah, I guess I can see why it might be useful at a quick glance but it just gets blown out of proportion and I think the only way it won't is if we stop talking about it and people just won't do that if it's there. I've been following some of your work on here for a few years, especially with your SportsCrunch ratings, that spreadsheet rules.

Anyway, yeah I think those categories and skillsets should be much more predominantly featured in AI MyLeague logic. For instance, say a team is lacking shooters and there are two SGs available, one an 82OVR great shooter and the other an 85OVR meh shooter. The AI should not even check the Overall, just the logic of player fit. This would help make rosters a lot more balanced and lead to better roster building in MyLeague.

I believe you about Wall, I've edited quite a few rosters in my time as well, I've seen the non-impact that certain attributes have based on your postion haha.

[DC]

We have been having the same talks since 2K7 or earlier.

I just let people cry at this point