Speed vs Speed With Ball

[REEality]

I've never understood how this is way off balance. How could a player be much faster with the ball vs sprinting without? No is faster with than they are without. Seems to only make playmaking Archetypes worth it as you can have a 75 speed point forward who has a 90+ speed with ball.

I'm just a fan of realism over player benefit (I'm a playmaking shotcreator by the way)

[ojandpizza]

Even though it doesn't seem logical I found 2K17 to be impossible to play without raising the speed with the ball.

Westbrook, LeBron, Magic, guys like that were not hard to stop on the break like they are in real life because without speed with the ball being basically maxed out they aren't faster than the defenders.

A lot of the problem is defensively it would force the ball handler to suck into you. Where in real life if you are beat you can't change the direction of the ball handler without getting in front of him and changing his direction. Even then the defender is likely back peddling and the ball handler has a full head of steam so they are almost forced to foul or get blown by.

This was impossible to replicate in 2K17, even with the speed with the ball maxed out. I haven't checked ratings for this game individually, but the overall speed of the ball handler and defensive recovery speed seems to be much more improved.

I understand nobody is realistically faster with the ball than without, but in 2K you had to make the players like that to have any chance at having a deadly fast-break type of player. Magic, Pippen, LeBron, Westbrook, none of those guys played even remotely close to their real life counterpart. And it was even worse if you didn't max out speed with ball.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[splashmountain]

Quote: Originally Posted by REEality

I've never understood how this is way off balance. How could a player be much faster with the ball vs sprinting without? No is faster with than they are without. Seems to only make playmaking Archetypes worth it as you can have a 75 speed point forward who has a 90+ speed with ball. I'm just a fan of realism over player benefit (I'm a playmaking shotcreator by the way)

i'll tell you why. when they made speed with ball. they made it universal for all types. they do this to make the programming easier. and to make it easier on the ram/memory.

Or they just forgot.

The formual right now is:

Speed(+/- height, +/- weight, +/- archetype, + ratings bars applied to play making ability)

Speed with ball(+/- arm wingspan(shorter faster dribbler), +/- archetype(playmakers are 99 max), + ratings bars applied to play making ability)


The taller you are the more you weigh, the longer your arms.. and the least amt of ratings bars applied to playmaking skillls. the slower your speed with ball will be. even though you could have just speed up high. you would be lets say Tony allen in his prime. a fast athetlic guy that had No handles. therefore he couldnt dribble really fast and control the ball.


the problem is. the ball speed formula needs to be linked to the overall speed like such:

Speed with ball rating is = -4 of speed rating.

So if the speed rating = 95
speed with ball can only be a max of 91(95-4)

some big playmaking forward = 80 speed
speed with ball = 76(80-4)

But i have a funny feeling 2k allowed it on purpose. because they know dribbling is a huge thing with casuals. and casuals rule since its more of them then their are the rest of us.

But allowing this is to some extent allowing demi-gods. no one is faster with the ball than without. not even bron.

[splashmountain]

Quote: Originally Posted by ojandpizza

Even though it doesn't seem logical I found 2K17 to be impossible to play without raising the speed with the ball. Westbrook, LeBron, Magic, guys like that were not hard to stop on the break like they are in real life because without speed with the ball being basically maxed out they aren't faster than the defenders. A lot of the problem is defensively it would force the ball handler to suck into you. Where in real life if you are beat you can't change the direction of the ball handler without getting in front of him and changing his direction. Even then the defender is likely back peddling and the ball handler has a full head of steam so they are almost forced to foul or get blown by. This was impossible to replicate in 2K17, even with the speed with the ball maxed out. I haven't checked ratings for this game individually, but the overall speed of the ball handler and defensive recovery speed seems to be much more improved. I understand nobody is realistically faster with the ball than without, but in 2K you had to make the players like that to have any chance at having a deadly fast-break type of player. Magic, Pippen, LeBron, Westbrook, none of those guys played even remotely close to their real life counterpart. And it was even worse if you didn't max out speed with ball. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

truth is most offensive ball handlers are not faster than the guys guarding them. not when they have the ball in hand. Some are still pretty darn fast. but you almost cant be faster having to dribble the ball and control it when I dont have to do that on defense. i just run like i'm on a race track.

How you get by people in real life. greats and regular joes. is to change speeds, use strength, and use your weight against guys.

the only time a dribbler beats a defender down the court. is when the defender is facing one direction while the dribbler is already running the other direction. and that usually happens on turnovers.

this means 2k has to change the speed of players when they do a full 180 degree turn to start running the other direction.

ex.

you shoot the 3 ball. and are watching your shot hopefully go in(following thru). the ball hits hard off the back of the rim. the rebound is long and the big gets it and hits the PG. you are just landing from watching your shot. me the opposite team's pg has the running at you. you're trying to turn your hips around and change your stance all at once while running. well I'm already ahead of you by now. you cant turn and get back faster than i can run even with the ball. IF i'm a fast guy with the ball.

see there's way to fix this stuff but its just how you think about it. if you only think "lets make the dribbler even faster" you will open up a new can of worms.

doing what i purpose above. will also make people think twice about chucking a 3 ball with someone who isnt money from deep. for fear of getting torched on the fast break. but this applies both ways. if you try to start running back as the opposing teams PG. trying to give your big an early outlet pass to start the break. but your team doesnt secure the rebound. thats an easy wide open 2nd attempt for the original team who shot and missed the original 3 ball.

^^thats how you think thru the scenarios where you dont have to nerf anything. you do it like it is in real life.

[REEality]

Quote: Originally Posted by ojandpizza

Even though it doesn't seem logical I found 2K17 to be impossible to play without raising the speed with the ball. Westbrook, LeBron, Magic, guys like that were not hard to stop on the break like they are in real life because without speed with the ball being basically maxed out they aren't faster than the defenders. A lot of the problem is defensively it would force the ball handler to suck into you. Where in real life if you are beat you can't change the direction of the ball handler without getting in front of him and changing his direction. Even then the defender is likely back peddling and the ball handler has a full head of steam so they are almost forced to foul or get blown by. This was impossible to replicate in 2K17, even with the speed with the ball maxed out. I haven't checked ratings for this game individually, but the overall speed of the ball handler and defensive recovery speed seems to be much more improved. I understand nobody is realistically faster with the ball than without, but in 2K you had to make the players like that to have any chance at having a deadly fast-break type of player. Magic, Pippen, LeBron, Westbrook, none of those guys played even remotely close to their real life counterpart. And it was even worse if you didn't max out speed with ball. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

2K18 is different, the speed threshold has been changed. I out run slower players easy and there's nomore drag animations where opposing players hold you just by being somewhat close

[splashmountain]

Quote: Originally Posted by REEality

2K18 is different, the speed threshold has been changed. I out run slower players easy and there's nomore drag animations where opposing players hold you just by being somewhat close

see again. they should've left the drag animation in the game. they should allow defenders to reach out by holding and grabbing at you. and most times that should be called a foul. and sometimes a breakaway foul.

you dont have to stop animations or nerf things in order to make it realistic. just think the entire scenario thru. If this happens then what happens, if that happens then what happens.

[REEality]

Quote: Originally Posted by splashmountain

truth is most offensive ball handlers are not faster than the guys guarding them. not when they have the ball in hand. Some are still pretty darn fast. but you almost cant be faster having to dribble the ball and control it when I dont have to do that on defense. i just run like i'm on a race track. How you get by people in real life. greats and regular joes. is to change speeds, use strength, and use your weight against guys. the only time a dribbler beats a defender down the court. is when the defender is facing one direction while the dribbler is already running the other direction. and that usually happens on turnovers. this means 2k has to change the speed of players when they do a full 180 degree turn to start running the other direction. ex. you shoot the 3 ball. and are watching your shot hopefully go in(following thru). the ball hits hard off the back of the rim. the rebound is long and the big gets it and hits the PG. you are just landing from watching your shot. me the opposite team's pg has the running at you. you're trying to turn your hips around and change your stance all at once while running. well I'm already ahead of you by now. you cant turn and get back faster than i can run even with the ball. IF i'm a fast guy with the ball. see there's way to fix this stuff but its just how you think about it. if you only think "lets make the dribbler even faster" you will open up a new can of worms. doing what i purpose above. will also make people think twice about chucking a 3 ball with someone who isnt money from deep. for fear of getting torched on the fast break. but this applies both ways. if you try to start running back as the opposing teams PG. trying to give your big an early outlet pass to start the break. but your team doesnt secure the rebound. thats an easy wide open 2nd attempt for the original team who shot and missed the original 3 ball. ^^thats how you think thru the scenarios where you dont have to nerf anything. you do it like it is in real life.

Yeah, Fast guys aren't faster with the ball. John Wall doesn't become faster with the ball. Westbrook, Lebron, etc. You dont gain speed. I've been a point guard my entire life, not NBA but College and recreational. I faster without the ball.

Defenders seem slower because they aren't sprinting when in the halfcourt. They have to reply mostly on lateral quickness moving side to side. But in a foot race.

[REEality]

Quote: Originally Posted by splashmountain

see again. they should've left the drag animation in the game. they should allow defenders to reach out by holding and grabbing at you. and most times that should be called a foul. and sometimes a breakaway foul. you dont have to stop animations or nerf things in order to make it realistic. just think the entire scenario thru. If this happens then what happens, if that happens then what happens.

There is an animation when a defend is on you back, he kinda holds you. Like in real life. But when a guy isn't on your back and is around 5 feet away. He should never much you run slower. That's what they took out. Fast players are really fast. Il get a clip and post in within this thread