Speed vs Speed With Ball

[REEality]

I've never understood how this is way off balance. How could a player be much faster with the ball vs sprinting without? No is faster with than they are without. Seems to only make playmaking Archetypes worth it as you can have a 75 speed point forward who has a 90+ speed with ball.

I'm just a fan of realism over player benefit (I'm a playmaking shotcreator by the way)

[ojandpizza]

Re: Speed vs Speed With Ball

Even though it doesn't seem logical I found 2K17 to be impossible to play without raising the speed with the ball.

Westbrook, LeBron, Magic, guys like that were not hard to stop on the break like they are in real life because without speed with the ball being basically maxed out they aren't faster than the defenders.

A lot of the problem is defensively it would force the ball handler to suck into you. Where in real life if you are beat you can't change the direction of the ball handler without getting in front of him and changing his direction. Even then the defender is likely back peddling and the ball handler has a full head of steam so they are almost forced to foul or get blown by.

This was impossible to replicate in 2K17, even with the speed with the ball maxed out. I haven't checked ratings for this game individually, but the overall speed of the ball handler and defensive recovery speed seems to be much more improved.

I understand nobody is realistically faster with the ball than without, but in 2K you had to make the players like that to have any chance at having a deadly fast-break type of player. Magic, Pippen, LeBron, Westbrook, none of those guys played even remotely close to their real life counterpart. And it was even worse if you didn't max out speed with ball.


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[splashmountain]

Re: Speed vs Speed With Ball

I've never understood how this is way off balance. How could a player be much faster with the ball vs sprinting without? No is faster with than they are without. Seems to only make playmaking Archetypes worth it as you can have a 75 speed point forward who has a 90+ speed with ball.

I'm just a fan of realism over player benefit (I'm a playmaking shotcreator by the way)

i'll tell you why. when they made speed with ball. they made it universal for all types. they do this to make the programming easier. and to make it easier on the ram/memory.

Or they just forgot.

The formual right now is:

Speed(+/- height, +/- weight, +/- archetype, + ratings bars applied to play making ability)

Speed with ball(+/- arm wingspan(shorter faster dribbler), +/- archetype(playmakers are 99 max), + ratings bars applied to play making ability)


The taller you are the more you weigh, the longer your arms.. and the least amt of ratings bars applied to playmaking skillls. the slower your speed with ball will be. even though you could have just speed up high. you would be lets say Tony allen in his prime. a fast athetlic guy that had No handles. therefore he couldnt dribble really fast and control the ball.


the problem is. the ball speed formula needs to be linked to the overall speed like such:

Speed with ball rating is = -4 of speed rating.

So if the speed rating = 95
speed with ball can only be a max of 91(95-4)

some big playmaking forward = 80 speed
speed with ball = 76(80-4)

But i have a funny feeling 2k allowed it on purpose. because they know dribbling is a huge thing with casuals. and casuals rule since its more of them then their are the rest of us.

But allowing this is to some extent allowing demi-gods. no one is faster with the ball than without. not even bron.

[splashmountain]

Re: Speed vs Speed With Ball

Even though it doesn't seem logical I found 2K17 to be impossible to play without raising the speed with the ball.

Westbrook, LeBron, Magic, guys like that were not hard to stop on the break like they are in real life because without speed with the ball being basically maxed out they aren't faster than the defenders.

A lot of the problem is defensively it would force the ball handler to suck into you. Where in real life if you are beat you can't change the direction of the ball handler without getting in front of him and changing his direction. Even then the defender is likely back peddling and the ball handler has a full head of steam so they are almost forced to foul or get blown by.

This was impossible to replicate in 2K17, even with the speed with the ball maxed out. I haven't checked ratings for this game individually, but the overall speed of the ball handler and defensive recovery speed seems to be much more improved.

I understand nobody is realistically faster with the ball than without, but in 2K you had to make the players like that to have any chance at having a deadly fast-break type of player. Magic, Pippen, LeBron, Westbrook, none of those guys played even remotely close to their real life counterpart. And it was even worse if you didn't max out speed with ball.


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truth is most offensive ball handlers are not faster than the guys guarding them. not when they have the ball in hand. Some are still pretty darn fast. but you almost cant be faster having to dribble the ball and control it when I dont have to do that on defense. i just run like i'm on a race track.

How you get by people in real life. greats and regular joes. is to change speeds, use strength, and use your weight against guys.

the only time a dribbler beats a defender down the court. is when the defender is facing one direction while the dribbler is already running the other direction. and that usually happens on turnovers.

this means 2k has to change the speed of players when they do a full 180 degree turn to start running the other direction.

ex.

you shoot the 3 ball. and are watching your shot hopefully go in(following thru). the ball hits hard off the back of the rim. the rebound is long and the big gets it and hits the PG. you are just landing from watching your shot. me the opposite team's pg has the running at you. you're trying to turn your hips around and change your stance all at once while running. well I'm already ahead of you by now. you cant turn and get back faster than i can run even with the ball. IF i'm a fast guy with the ball.

see there's way to fix this stuff but its just how you think about it. if you only think "lets make the dribbler even faster" you will open up a new can of worms.

doing what i purpose above. will also make people think twice about chucking a 3 ball with someone who isnt money from deep. for fear of getting torched on the fast break. but this applies both ways. if you try to start running back as the opposing teams PG. trying to give your big an early outlet pass to start the break. but your team doesnt secure the rebound. thats an easy wide open 2nd attempt for the original team who shot and missed the original 3 ball.

^^thats how you think thru the scenarios where you dont have to nerf anything. you do it like it is in real life.

[REEality]

Re: Speed vs Speed With Ball

Even though it doesn't seem logical I found 2K17 to be impossible to play without raising the speed with the ball.

Westbrook, LeBron, Magic, guys like that were not hard to stop on the break like they are in real life because without speed with the ball being basically maxed out they aren't faster than the defenders.

A lot of the problem is defensively it would force the ball handler to suck into you. Where in real life if you are beat you can't change the direction of the ball handler without getting in front of him and changing his direction. Even then the defender is likely back peddling and the ball handler has a full head of steam so they are almost forced to foul or get blown by.

This was impossible to replicate in 2K17, even with the speed with the ball maxed out. I haven't checked ratings for this game individually, but the overall speed of the ball handler and defensive recovery speed seems to be much more improved.

I understand nobody is realistically faster with the ball than without, but in 2K you had to make the players like that to have any chance at having a deadly fast-break type of player. Magic, Pippen, LeBron, Westbrook, none of those guys played even remotely close to their real life counterpart. And it was even worse if you didn't max out speed with ball.


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2K18 is different, the speed threshold has been changed. I out run slower players easy and there's nomore drag animations where opposing players hold you just by being somewhat close

[splashmountain]

Re: Speed vs Speed With Ball

2K18 is different, the speed threshold has been changed. I out run slower players easy and there's nomore drag animations where opposing players hold you just by being somewhat close

see again. they should've left the drag animation in the game. they should allow defenders to reach out by holding and grabbing at you. and most times that should be called a foul. and sometimes a breakaway foul.

you dont have to stop animations or nerf things in order to make it realistic. just think the entire scenario thru. If this happens then what happens, if that happens then what happens.

[REEality]

Re: Speed vs Speed With Ball

truth is most offensive ball handlers are not faster than the guys guarding them. not when they have the ball in hand. Some are still pretty darn fast. but you almost cant be faster having to dribble the ball and control it when I dont have to do that on defense. i just run like i'm on a race track.

How you get by people in real life. greats and regular joes. is to change speeds, use strength, and use your weight against guys.

the only time a dribbler beats a defender down the court. is when the defender is facing one direction while the dribbler is already running the other direction. and that usually happens on turnovers.

this means 2k has to change the speed of players when they do a full 180 degree turn to start running the other direction.

ex.

you shoot the 3 ball. and are watching your shot hopefully go in(following thru). the ball hits hard off the back of the rim. the rebound is long and the big gets it and hits the PG. you are just landing from watching your shot. me the opposite team's pg has the running at you. you're trying to turn your hips around and change your stance all at once while running. well I'm already ahead of you by now. you cant turn and get back faster than i can run even with the ball. IF i'm a fast guy with the ball.

see there's way to fix this stuff but its just how you think about it. if you only think "lets make the dribbler even faster" you will open up a new can of worms.

doing what i purpose above. will also make people think twice about chucking a 3 ball with someone who isnt money from deep. for fear of getting torched on the fast break. but this applies both ways. if you try to start running back as the opposing teams PG. trying to give your big an early outlet pass to start the break. but your team doesnt secure the rebound. thats an easy wide open 2nd attempt for the original team who shot and missed the original 3 ball.

^^thats how you think thru the scenarios where you dont have to nerf anything. you do it like it is in real life.

Yeah, Fast guys aren't faster with the ball. John Wall doesn't become faster with the ball. Westbrook, Lebron, etc. You dont gain speed. I've been a point guard my entire life, not NBA but College and recreational. I faster without the ball.

Defenders seem slower because they aren't sprinting when in the halfcourt. They have to reply mostly on lateral quickness moving side to side. But in a foot race.

[REEality]

Re: Speed vs Speed With Ball

see again. they should've left the drag animation in the game. they should allow defenders to reach out by holding and grabbing at you. and most times that should be called a foul. and sometimes a breakaway foul.

you dont have to stop animations or nerf things in order to make it realistic. just think the entire scenario thru. If this happens then what happens, if that happens then what happens.

There is an animation when a defend is on you back, he kinda holds you. Like in real life. But when a guy isn't on your back and is around 5 feet away. He should never much you run slower. That's what they took out. Fast players are really fast. Il get a clip and post in within this thread

[ojandpizza]

Speed vs Speed With Ball

truth is most offensive ball handlers are not faster than the guys guarding them. not when they have the ball in hand. Some are still pretty darn fast. but you almost cant be faster having to dribble the ball and control it when I dont have to do that on defense. i just run like i'm on a race track.



How you get by people in real life. greats and regular joes. is to change speeds, use strength, and use your weight against guys.



the only time a dribbler beats a defender down the court. is when the defender is facing one direction while the dribbler is already running the other direction. and that usually happens on turnovers.



this means 2k has to change the speed of players when they do a full 180 degree turn to start running the other direction.



ex.



you shoot the 3 ball. and are watching your shot hopefully go in(following thru). the ball hits hard off the back of the rim. the rebound is long and the big gets it and hits the PG. you are just landing from watching your shot. me the opposite team's pg has the running at you. you're trying to turn your hips around and change your stance all at once while running. well I'm already ahead of you by now. you cant turn and get back faster than i can run even with the ball. IF i'm a fast guy with the ball.



see there's way to fix this stuff but its just how you think about it. if you only think "lets make the dribbler even faster" you will open up a new can of worms.



doing what i purpose above. will also make people think twice about chucking a 3 ball with someone who isnt money from deep. for fear of getting torched on the fast break. but this applies both ways. if you try to start running back as the opposing teams PG. trying to give your big an early outlet pass to start the break. but your team doesnt secure the rebound. thats an easy wide open 2nd attempt for the original team who shot and missed the original 3 ball.



^^thats how you think thru the scenarios where you dont have to nerf anything. you do it like it is in real life.

All I know is on last years game you could play the 07 Cavs against the 08 Celtics and Scalabrine could catch LeBron on the break despite his speed with the ball being higher than Scalabrine's speed. This issue was because if he got anywhere within 5 feet of LeBron the defensive magnets would kick it and force you from pulling away which made the speed with the ball rating nearly irrelevant for players who are actually fast with the ball. Part of the reason I hated 2K17. They took out the ability to be ability to weave through traffic, so the sensation of someone like Westbrook tearing down the court and players back pedaling or trying to cut him off from his hip was basically excluded from the game as well.


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[hyretic]

Re: Speed vs Speed With Ball

the problem is. the ball speed formula needs to be linked to the overall speed like such:

Speed with ball rating is = -4 of speed rating.

So if the speed rating = 95
speed with ball can only be a max of 91(95-4)

some big playmaking forward = 80 speed
speed with ball = 76(80-4)

What about big athletic guys who don't have a good handle? This would make them too good at it.

[LorenzoDC]

Re: Speed vs Speed With Ball

What makes anyone think that speed rating and speed with ball rating are on the same scale at all?

It may not actually mean that a player is faster with the ball than without it if speed =75 and speed with ball = 85. These are just ratings for formulas that drive animations, not stopwatch 40 times.

[splashmountain]

Re: Speed vs Speed With Ball

There is an animation when a defend is on you back, he kinda holds you. Like in real life. But when a guy isn't on your back and is around 5 feet away. He should never much you run slower. That's what they took out. Fast players are really fast. Il get a clip and post in within this thread

Oh ok. yeah you're right. thats that large force field thats around each player. its too large. so even when a guy is way away from you things in his ratings will still affect you and animation start kicking in. this is what i hate about lockdown defenders. all they need to be is in the vincinty and your guy starts having spasms and doing all sorts of weird animations to make you make a mistake. when in reality what they should do is not change your animation around lockdowns. they should just boost their ability to get steals and blocks. so it will scare you enough to think twice about going anywhere near them. no need for the silly animations. allow them to TIP more passes/balls in general than normal guys when they are in good defensive position. But if I put one up under the rim or i use the Rim to shield them off and go for a reverse. do make me animate into some kind of funny blown layup. thats not realistic. as great as mutombo was at blocking shots. he didnt make guys just do stupid stuff just by standing under the rim. he had to be in front of the rim on the side the offensive guy is on. or he comes over their at the last moment for the swat. you aint scaring anyone underneath the rim because we know you will hit your hands the bottom of the backboard or rim if you tried to jump and block the a shot from that area. which would have you injured.

[splashmountain]

Re: Speed vs Speed With Ball

What makes anyone think that speed rating and speed with ball rating are on the same scale at all?

It may not actually mean that a player is faster with the ball than without it if speed =75 and speed with ball = 85. These are just ratings for formulas that drive animations, not stopwatch 40 times.

you asked and I'll answer. because I made guys before that had faster speed with ball than they did normal speed without the ball.

the way you know they are faster is this.

do a reverse setup.

get a guy with a slower speed with ball and a faster speed without ball rating. lets say speed with ball 75, regular speed without ball 85.

Let the guy run out for a break after he hits the half court line while a defender is running next to him. then pass him the ball. the moment he catches the ball. watch him slow down a ton. It will be like someone attached a weight to his ankles.

This is how you know the speed without the ball if turned up higher than speed with ball. the speed without the ball is faster. by 10 points. whatever 10 points means in frame rate/animations. thats another subject.

as long as it means the same thing when it comes to speed with ball. which it does.

we know this because then you use the same example and boost the guys speed with ball to match the speed without ball. both now are 85 each.

do the same thing. toss the ball to him after he hits half court. and watch how he doesnt slow up at all. same stride, same speed with or without the ball. since both are 85.

thats how we know.

again having a higher ball speed than you do regular speed is not realistic at all. that should be changed.

but like i said. if/when they change it. they need to change the speed in which a guy can turn completely around to start guarding someone. that needs to be slowed down a bit. if it is. then you will still see your ball handlers speed kick in even vs a defender that isnt running stride for stride with you yet. you will have an advantage if you are going at him before he turns around after being on offense. this is when you see the john walls/westbrooks look fast as hell on the break with the ball. dont be fooled. they are not faster with the ball than without it. it just looks that way because the defender hasnt fully turned around yet to guard them so they're gone. its over. on a break.

the half court stuff is simple. slow lateral quickness and not playing the proper angles. will get you lit up by wall and the westbrooks of the nba. they will blow right by you. its not just foot speed. its quickness, agility, handling, but also bad defense, a defenders quickness or lack thereof, a defenders lack of agility/balance.

watch that first play and the rest of the video. the defender gives him that right side. how dumb can you be? lol. i'm not sure if 2k has put this in but i think guys should drive slower to their weaker hand. and if you choose to be good with both hands when you create your guy. then neither hand should make you super explosive going left or right. thats the draw back of being quick in either direction. you lose the ability to be super quick in one of the directions. thats again real life.

https://youtu.be/B_9TYgHajeg?t=34

thats the full video above.

but watch it from here too just where it starts at around 1:40 . watch how the defender can't turn all the way around from being on offense cause john wall is heading full speed in that direction already. if he turns around john is gone. if he doesnt he's half turned and john is still gone. thats what needs to be fixed on 2k when/if they fix the ball speed.

https://youtu.be/B_9TYgHajeg?t=100

[FR3SH1]

Speed vs Speed With Ball

As much as it need to be tweaked. It's still better than defenders being able to hawk down players with high speed ala 2k17. I'll rather this than that any day


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[lilteapot]

Re: Speed vs Speed With Ball

While we're on the subject (kinda) what is the difference between acceleration and speed?