Post fadeaway sucks

[harryl]

Quote: Originally Posted by jeebs9

That's why it's money. The defender gets shook first. One of the big problems with post game in pass 2k's (before 2k16, where they re did the whole post game). Was a user would get the ball and would just the same move over and over. And on defense there was counter to anything. So for a full counter system to work. You can't have one more be undefeatable if your just standing there.

From what I recall, it was 2K16 that was the last year we had Fade Ace and I think the post-fade was about as cheesy as it got, in terms of just needing optimal timing to succeed against good D, as well as having a pretty forgiving timing window. I remember cheesing the CPU relentless in Domination with Dirk post-fades.

In 2K17, Fade Ace disappeared and I think the timing window got tightened and/or they tuned things so that contests would have greater detrimental effect. But I still remember how, near the end of the MyTeam cycle, the prime Diamond Dirk, in the right hands, could be a scoring terror. Coupled with what was a better fake/combo system than we had in 2K16, the relative ease of getting post-spins and drop-steps, a good post-up player was probably too tough to lock down.

I regularly played one guy who was absurd with his Dirk. If I had Shawn Kemp on him, Kemp would get torched. Even if I put guys like Sampson and Kareem on him, he'd score at a high rate. I had to get cheesy with double-teaming and spamming steal to make it an unattractive proposition to post up.

This year, the shot success on post-ups feels a bit nerfed. So I agree with OP that post fades are not as reliable. But I also agree with Jeebs that this is more about accurately figuring in quality contests as they should be. And greatly reducing the rate that great timing can get an automatic fade completion.

But at the same time, they've added more to the post arsenal, with post fakes/combos being even more fluid and, I think, there being more combo paths. Definitely a more forgiving window within which one can cancel/fake and then combo into next move.

The end effect, as I see it, is that post play is harder to leverage for less skilled players. Post-fades are hardly successful against high quality, strong contests. I think post-spins are easier to defend. Drop-steps seem to result in less favorable animations, in large part due to that fake animation that delays the scoring move.

But post play can be more rewarding for those who really master the moves, specifically if they have full command of fake/combo chaining. And incorporate the better Triple Threat face-up options.

[howardphillips214]

Quote: Originally Posted by harryl

From what I recall, it was 2K16 that was the last year we had Fade Ace and I think the post-fade was about as cheesy as it got, in terms of just needing optimal timing to succeed against good D, as well as having a pretty forgiving timing window. I remember cheesing the CPU relentless in Domination with Dirk post-fades. In 2K17, Fade Ace disappeared and I think the timing window got tightened and/or they tuned things so that contests would have greater detrimental effect. But I still remember how, near the end of the MyTeam cycle, the prime Diamond Dirk, in the right hands, could be a scoring terror. Coupled with what was a better fake/combo system than we had in 2K16, the relative ease of getting post-spins and drop-steps, a good post-up player was probably too tough to lock down. I regularly played one guy who was absurd with his Dirk. If I had Shawn Kemp on him, Kemp would get torched. Even if I put guys like Sampson and Kareem on him, he'd score at a high rate. I had to get cheesy with double-teaming and spamming steal to make it an unattractive proposition to post up. This year, the shot success on post-ups feels a bit nerfed. So I agree with OP that post fades are not as reliable. But I also agree with Jeebs that this is more about accurately figuring in quality contests as they should be. And greatly reducing the rate that great timing can get an automatic fade completion. But at the same time, they've added more to the post arsenal, with post fakes/combos being even more fluid and, I think, there being more combo paths. Definitely a more forgiving window within which one can cancel/fake and then combo into next move. The end effect, as I see it, is that post play is harder to leverage for less skilled players. Post-fades are hardly successful against high quality, strong contests. I think post-spins are easier to defend. Drop-steps seem to result in less favorable animations, in large part due to that fake animation that delays the scoring move. But post play can be more rewarding for those who really master the moves, specifically if they have full command of fake/combo chaining. And incorporate the better Triple Threat face-up options.

Prime Dirk in a video game SHOULD be a nightmare. It's simply why I stopped playing my Dirk build. Post first was worthless. I should have made him sharp first and post second because I can't back down on the elbows and just immediately pull. In walk-on if you back someone down you can't just immediately pull so any up and under or shimmy moves take too long.

[jyoung]

Quote:

The second layer is just asking for you to create space between your opponent and you.

It's easy to do that against an AI, because they're clueless this year at defending all of the post moves.

But against a human-controlled 7'3" max wingspan center, which is what you'll face 90% of the time in Pro Am, creating enough space to register a "wide open" fadeaway just isn't going to happen very often against any decent defender, due to their massive arm length, shot coverage, and recovery speed. Even if it looks like you've successfully faked them out, the fadeaway will probably register as "open" instead of "wide open" against a 7'3" max wingspan defender, and just being "open" will significantly reduce your odds of getting a perfect release unless you're on fire.

And any shot you take in 2K18 that doesn't have the ability to consistently register as a perfect release is a bad shot.

If 2K is going to let sharpshooters make 70% of their 30-foot jump shots, then post scorers need to be able to make a similar percentage of their 15-foot fadeaways. Otherwise, we might as well just all use sharpshooters and chuck up 30-footers, since 3 points is more than 2 points, and right now, those 3 point shots are much easier to make in 2K18 than the 2 point shots.

I bet if you compared the make percentages that sharpshooters can get in 2K18 on "heavily contested," "lightly contested," and "open" shots, those numbers would be at least 15% to 30% higher than the make percentages for post scorer fadeaways under the same shot coverage conditions.

There's an undeniable disparity in this game with how contested a jump shot can be while still going in consistently versus how contested a post fadeaway can be while still going in consistently.

I think some of that disparity comes from the fact that post fadeaways have no badges to boost their make percentages, while jump shots frequently receive percentage boosts from badges like dimer, catch and shoot, corner specialist, limitless range, pick and roll maestro, pick and popper, deadeye, and difficult shots.

[2_headedmonster]

The thing about the post game in 18 is it's closer to realistic than the mid range and three in the myplayer realm, so it sticks out like a sore thumb. In a world where you can have badges on the level of all-time greats, and a 99 3-point rating means you shoot better than the best who's ever done it it's glaring when your post ratings don't do the same.

That said, I find the postgame to be very rewarding. If you know your timing on the post Fades and use them as counters to spins and drop steps then you can really make an opponent pay for guessing wrong. I recently made a pure post player because I had a bunch of VC lying around, and have found myself getting deeper into the Combos and making players look silly in the park. Lots of fun man.

[jeebs9]

Quote: Originally Posted by howardphillips214

Prime Dirk in a video game SHOULD be a nightmare. It's simply why I stopped playing my Dirk build. Post first was worthless. I should have made him sharp first and post second because I can't back down on the elbows and just immediately pull. In walk-on if you back someone down you can't just immediately pull so any up and under or shimmy moves take too long.

Man you keep saying this. Prime Dirk is a nightmare.... It doesn't take much to create a little space. You create space by just doing the the post step back fade away. And that's cash. You fade away to the opposite shoulder and create space that way too. It's just lazy to make the game one trick pony with a release or timing. It's not real life. It's a video game.

Look at this users fading away on me. He knows what he's doing



Also don't make me make a Dirk video lol. Especially the face up game.This year they brought back hitting contest jumpers from the post up face up (it feels super balanced compared to before)

Quote: Originally Posted by jyoung

It's easy to do that against an AI, because they're clueless this year at defending all of the post moves. But against a human-controlled 7'3" max wingspan center, which is what you'll face 90% of the time in Pro Am, creating enough space to register a "wide open" fadeaway just isn't going to happen very often against any decent defender, due to their massive arm length, shot coverage, and recovery speed. Even if it looks like you've successfully faked them out, the fadeaway will probably register as "open" instead of "wide open" against a 7'3" max wingspan defender, and just being "open" will significantly reduce your odds of getting a perfect release unless you're on fire. And any shot you take in 2K18 that doesn't have the ability to consistently register as a perfect release is a bad shot. If 2K is going to let sharpshooters make 70% of their 30-foot jump shots, then post scorers need to be able to make a similar percentage of their 15-foot fadeaways. Otherwise, we might as well just all use sharpshooters and chuck up 30-footers, since 3 points is more than 2 points, and right now, those 3 point shots are much easier to make in 2K18 than the 2 point shots. I bet if you compared the make percentages that sharpshooters can get in 2K18 on "heavily contested," "lightly contested," and "open" shots, those numbers would be at least 15% to 30% higher than the make percentages for post scorer fadeaways under the same shot coverage conditions. There's an undeniable disparity in this game with how contested a jump shot can be while still going in consistently versus how contested a post fadeaway can be while still going in consistently. I think some of that disparity comes from the fact that post fadeaways have no badges to boost their make percentages, while jump shots frequently receive percentage boosts from badges like dimer, catch and shoot, corner specialist, limitless range, pick and roll maestro, pick and popper, deadeye, and difficult shots.

I've seen a lot of hook shots go down with bad releases. And when I say bad. I mean any red release.

Humans are just as bad as the AI.

Quote: Originally Posted by 2_headedmonster

The thing about the post game in 18 is it's closer to realistic than the mid range and three in the myplayer realm, so it sticks out like a sore thumb. In a world where you can have badges on the level of all-time greats, and a 99 3-point rating means you shoot better than the best who's ever done it it's glaring when your post ratings don't do the same. That said, I find the postgame to be very rewarding. If you know your timing on the post Fades and use them as counters to spins and drop steps then you can really make an opponent pay for guessing wrong. I recently made a pure post player because I had a bunch of VC lying around, and have found myself getting deeper into the Combos and making players look silly in the park. Lots of fun man.

I think you hit the nail on the head in the first paragraph.

[Ragnar53]

Really to get the post fadeaway popping you have to start out post spinning or post driving to the basket.

Then you incorporate a shimmy. The defender will likely back up anticipating you going towards the rim, then it's a matter of doing a post stepback away from the defender or a hook shot, depending on which of the ratings is higher (So for a guy like Patrick Ewing it would be better to do a fadeaway, whereas a guy like Shaq would be better off with a hook shot).

The thing is, the defender (User) HAS to bite to a side if you're dominating them with post spins, drives, or dropsteps.

If they let the CPU guard you, just shimmy twice quickly (THE CPU always disengages off you) then do whatever you want with an open or wide open look.

[howardphillips214]

Quote: Originally Posted by jeebs9

Man you keep saying this. Prime Dirk is a nightmare.... It doesn't take much to create a little space. You create space by just doing the the post step back fade away. And that's cash. You fade away to the opposite shoulder and create space that way too. It's just lazy to make the game one trick pony with a release or timing. It's not real life. It's a video game. Look at this users fading away on me. He knows what he's doing Also don't make me make a Dirk video lol. Especially the face up game.This year they brought back hitting contest jumpers from the post up face up (it feels super balanced compared to before) I've seen a lot of hook shots go down with bad releases. And when I say bad. I mean any red release. Humans are just as bad as the AI. I think you hit the nail on the head in the first paragraph.

At 39 the real Dirk can still engage in the post and immediately pull on one leg. I've watched him since I was a kid. He had an up and under game earlier in his career, but that's too much on his legs these days. He only posts about 3-4 times a game if that. He doesn't back down anymore but maybe for a dribble IF THAT. The entire purpose of the one legger is to post and immediately pick a shoulder. And in the walk on or team anything else is too long.

I'm sorry you only play one game mode, I understand you're a pno person. But sitting here preaching balance in the most unbalanced version of 2k in a decade is utterly ignorant. It's actually offensive. You have zero context in every single thread because you play ONE game mode.

The beauty of the my park and pro am is we get to truly maximize and understand the potential of ONE player. If said player doesn't do the one or two things you designed him for, you move on.

I have a character of each position all specializing in one game mechanic and hopefully adding a second to an extent because it's of lesser effect.

If I make a player who is post first in an environment where I have less than a second to make a decision or risk a turn over you bet your *** imma be salty if my specialty isn't as effective as I need it to be.

My sole purpose of that character was catch on elbow, post fade, hopefully I can still spread the floor if I'm left open and shoot at a high clip.

Not only does post fade from 17 feet use your mid-range rating instead of post fade, but it's also weighted like a jumper. And a GOOD release with minimal coverage I will brick almost every time. That's a bad investment. That's a faulty game mechanic. Maybe you're right, maybe it's better in YOUR mode. But I'm not claiming I need to make ever one like a sharp expects. I just want to be reliable.

The 3 shouldn't be the only way to score efficiently in this game. My slasher they just have to play off since I can't shoot. My playmaker can't finish, my shot creator doesn't hit pull ups like he used to and my post scorer can't shoot fades. I wasted a lot if time and effort trying to counter shooters and play the game the way I want to. But nothing is as efficient as shooting and that's a problem.

If we keep "balancing" everyone but the shooters we might as well have no archetypes at all in the my career mode. Nothing performs like they do. Sorry I wish my paying money had anything to do with my game experience I prefer.

[2_headedmonster]

I honestly see both sides of the argument. Its hared to tell a person they should HAVE to be patient or strategic in the post when there are players that just run to the restricted area and trigger posterizers or hang out 5 feet beyond the three point line and wait for a slither of daylight and hit with consistency.