Can we talk about how BAD Pick-and-Roll-defense is?

[LorenzoDC]

Quote: Originally Posted by Kushmir

This. All of it. Its all we're asking. I agree, the hip riding animation is fine. The problem is it isnt balanced with Charges, poke-aways, Loose balls from Collisions, Strips, getting redirected and the general understanding that everyone can't drive past defenders....and even those that can generally can't do it at will--especially against good and elite defenders. Sent from my SM-J327P using Operation Sports mobile app

The stuff I bolded is all wrapped up in my theory of the limitations of what the current version of the game can handle at the intersection of 4 players and a ball with all the possible outcomes, animations available and collisions.

[Kushmir]

Quote: Originally Posted by LorenzoDC

We see how some animations require "bad" defense in order to play out as the under the hood dice roll for the play dictate all the time. We see how rim protecting defenders step out of the way of guards driving for layups, for example, especially when the team on offense has momentum. We see it with offensive rebounding, especially for CPU kickouts to shooters coming off ORs. When you compound that familiar effect over the many calculations involved in harmonizing the actions of 4 players involved in the PnR (not even including the help defender behind the play), you have lots of room for ghost effects that override defensive settings. This is aside from the inability of the collision tech at this point to deal properly with soft versus hard hedging versus ice versus collisions when going under. My guess is they know they have a lot of work to do with these systems, and that they currently just don't have enough animations to cover for the many potential interactions and outcomes that would account for four players moving in a tight space (don't even get me started on the ball). So right now they are just kind of fudging it with band aids, which include the hip riding and ball handler red carpet driving lanes. It's really valuable to show this stuff - kudos to you kushmir. Czar has been saying for a while that the defensive AI is still a year or two behind trying to catch up with offense, and this to me shows that pretty clearly.

I don't know if i've ever heard anyone describe it better "making defense bad so some plays can be completed." is spot on...thats exactly what it is. I can't wait until we get to the point where we just make the offense BETTER instead of the defense DUMB....good plays, not idiotic ones y'know?

Speaking of which, the user contest is simply too strong....and its the main reason any kind of user bonus should be a thing of the past. It feels so cheap contesting ...and think of how contesting works: By quickly clicking on the defender closest to the play and pressing block. How ridiculous is that? It doesn't matter if the guy is Steven Adams or Isiah Thomas...simply jumping at the offensive player will give them a high chance of blowing a layup. That we don't even care who we're contesting with boggles my mind.

That. Is. So. Bad.

I can't wait until right stick contesting is improved and strips/blocks are risky/limited to the people with the actual skillsets. When jumping to block a shot with TJ McConnell (or with bad timing) is the quickest, easiest way to get a whistle or completely out of good defensive position.

Also, I really can't take the credit regarding my pieces...most of what I do is inspired by you guys. I see a response in a thread, go test stuff and find out how bad things are--and how smart the guys here on OS are.

After I finish my "Fixing PNO" series i'd love for those of us genuinely concerned about the game to coordinate on a community project detailing the top 10 issues with the game. We can't expect them to eliminate every legacy issue in one cycle....but committing to resolve a few every year would be a great thing.

[Kushmir]

Almost forgot these from today....this is "Switch All" so no advantage is gained via PNR.





It feels like trolling at this point. Maybe someone can tell me what Simmons was doing on the 2nd play other than "making sure Collison scores."

[Smirkin Dirk]

Once the mechanics get all sorted out and faulty issues fixed, I think 2 changes to strategies are needed.

1. The centers like to stay attached to big screeners, even if they arent shooters. I run pick and pop with Simmons and Amir Johnson a lot because the CPU will stay attached to Johnson, wide open driving lane.

2. I don't see any difference between Auto (this is supposed to trigger help the helper all over the court) on screen/drive rules and Help with no Rotation (one helper, no help the helper).

Ive recorded examples of great CPU rotations, and I'd expect them to get more consistent as the editions roll on.

[Smirkin Dirk]

And Kush, I think at least some of this may be the lack of explanation from 2K on what these settings mean. That has been an improvement this year, but some stuff is still unexplained and getting some clarity would really help.

For example, your video about Olynyk. You chose 'no help' for him, yet his defender helped off him.

From my understanding the 'no help' setting only applies to ball handlers you want 'no help' from when they drive.

If I want a dude to stick on Olynyk I'd choose deny for his off ball pressure.

[LorenzoDC]

Quote: Originally Posted by Smirkin Dirk

And Kush, I think at least some of this may be the lack of explanation from 2K on what these settings mean. That has been an improvement this year, but some stuff is still unexplained and getting some clarity would really help. For example, your video about Olynyk. You chose 'no help' for him, yet his defender helped off him. From my understanding the 'no help' setting only applies to ball handlers you want 'no help' from when they drive. If I want a dude to stick on Olynyk I'd choose deny for his off ball pressure.

I've seen weak side deny off ball defenders inexplicably sag off on many occasions. Sometimes the settings just don't take effect, and there's no apparent logic to it.

Sometimes you can see how an off ball screen sends a guy spinning to guard the wrong guy and leave a guy open - off ball screens really bring collisions that break defense a lot. But sometimes it's just the system doing. . . inexplicable things you tell it not to do.

[Smirkin Dirk]

I just spent 2 games using the stay attached setting, and that's what my defenders did. I did notice they'd auto switch when the CPU was very late in the shotclock.

[jeebs9]

Quote: Originally Posted by LorenzoDC

I've seen weak side deny off ball defenders inexplicably sag off on many occasions. Sometimes the settings just don't take effect, and there's no apparent logic to it. Sometimes you can see how an off ball screen sends a guy spinning to guard the wrong guy and leave a guy open - off ball screens really bring collisions that break defense a lot. But sometimes it's just the system doing. . . inexplicable things you tell it not to do.

I wish 2k would tell us what we are doing wrong.

I had LeBron leave KD when I told him to play tight. It why he didn't see the ball. Back was to it.