Issues with 2K e-league being on a different build of the game?

[Kushmir]

[quote=ph33;2049198461]DOTA and CS are good examples. Same game for everyone no matter the scene. When I play DOTA I can only play with people in the slums tiers, because that's my level. When I play against good players, they're going to whoop my *** because they are THAT good at the game and know the small details much better than I. But it's not because they've been playing a different version of the game. It's because they're amazing. Likewise, in CS. An ak-47 doesn't have different recoil in casual than it does competitive. And so when you watch competitive players play and what makes them good, you can try to infuse the same elements in your own game to try to improve a little at a time. [quote]


☝☝☝This all day.

Its perfectly stated...its the difference between competition at the highest level and shrinking the skill gap so the game is "fun". It why so much of gaming at the highest level is shooter-based....because they figured it out early.

I lol'd at your example of not being in the same ballpark as elite players. This is as it should be. Elite players wont play a game where they have to struggle with casuals because block timing doesn't matter or the stepback always creates separation.

Games that truly reward skill will always, always lead the way. See Rocket League, LoL, CS or even R6: Siege for details.

[hanzsomehanz]

I'm open to see how it runs out before I judge it. If it's new and unprecedented, that's fine with me; I just want to see the end product and judge that production.

I been trying to figure out how the tryouts work in February. Are you doing skill based training like playing as a Sharpshooter with no badges and no hot zones? I expect you're selecting the build and position you want to try out for. I don't imagine you're doing drills for every skill. I'm curious to know what challenges are imposed in this combine type mode for February.

Regarding the modes we get to play though, I don't see what the hold up is in getting us a competitive mode for at least Pro Am Team. If E-League is played with 85 overall characters and no badges then I could see how their gameplay will be different than ours based on those conditions alone. On the other hand, if they are also using different gameplay sliders then we still won't get that experience even with matched sliders because our characters will have badges and will be higher rated.

Again, I'm open to see how the production pans out regardless of what we get and don't get. I'm still going to judge based on the quality of the E-League gameplay and entertainment. No need for me to judge early before anything has taken place.



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[ph33]

Quote: Originally Posted by Kushmir

☝☝☝This all day. Its perfectly stated...its the difference between competition at the highest level and shrinking the skill gap so the game is "fun". It why so much of gaming at the highest level is shooter-based....because they figured it out early. I lol'd at your example of not being in the same ballpark as elite players. This is as it should be. Elite players wont play a game where they have to struggle with casuals because block timing doesn't matter or the stepback always creates separation. Games that truly reward skill will always, always lead the way. See Rocket League, LoL, CS or even R6: Siege for details.

I think the one thing those games have that this doesn't is the insane amount of depth in it. Every single game you play will look completely different from one you just did. In DOTA, you can know how to play the game, but part of being a master is knowing ALL the heros, how they work with and against each other, and being able to put the right team combinations in lanes and knowing how to build your hero to effectively counter the other team. That is where the massive learning curve is. In a game like CS, the massive learning curve is knowing the map extremely well and getting a feel for timing of where people may be, knowing how to shoot, knowing where to aim your crosshairs when you turn the corner, etc.

Right now, this mode doesn't have too much depth, and I do think so much of it has to do with people not being able to access other builds unless they dump a ton of VC and time into it. I would absolutely want to play with a pure rim protector if I could and see how that build fits with others. The reason we see so many of the same builds is because there's a lot of pressure on the user to get this one build right cause there ain't no turning back.

There's so many archetype combinations, hopefully those can become the "hero" equivalent to other games where each one has a legitimate use, and the smarter and better team wins because they know how to execute based on what they've got and knowing how to counter.

Makes me wonder if there's going to be a "We pick you pick" system where teams take turns so that they can counter what the other team has. But that's way far ahead.

Like for example, team 1 picks a pure sharp SG. Then nobody else gets a pure sharp SG. Team 2 picks a lockdown SG, and that's off the table. Then team 2 picks a paint protector and team 1 picks a stretch big to counter. Something like that...if you're going to be a "pro" at this game, you should be able to run with any build and adjust on the fly. I think that's where some of the skill gap could be, so that people have to know how to run multiple styles.

[3ShowTime2]

Quote: Originally Posted by ph33

DOTA and CS are good examples. Same game for everyone no matter the scene. When I play DOTA I can only play with people in the slums tiers, because that's my level. When I play against good players, they're going to whoop my *** because they are THAT good at the game and know the small details much better than I. But it's not because they've been playing a different version of the game. It's because they're amazing. Likewise, in CS. An ak-47 doesn't have different recoil in casual than it does competitive. And so when you watch competitive players play and what makes them good, you can try to infuse the same elements in your own game to try to improve a little at a time.

100%. Most of the viewers of esports games love and play the game themself. Games like DOTA etc. are not even remotely accessible to anyone who doesnt play the game himself because you dont understand anything. A lot of the players learn from their "esports idols". So if you would let the competitive scene play a different game you would shoot yourself in your own foot.

[jeebs9]

Quote: Originally Posted by 3ShowTime2

No need to distract. You dont have an example for an esports game thats works with different builds for the public and competitive environment, no need for further discussion.

There is no need to.... Because... You don't know.....I don't need anything to point to.

[ph33]

Quote: Originally Posted by 3ShowTime2

100%. Most of the viewers of esports games love and play the game themself. Games like DOTA etc. are not even remotely accessible to anyone who doesnt play the game himself because you dont understand anything. A lot of the players learn from their "esports idols". So if you would let the competitive scene play a different game you would shoot yourself in your own foot.

I do think this game will be much more accessible to everybody else though. Basketball at its core is easy to follow, but like in other games, lots of small details and depth. For example, everybody knows how to set a screen...but I've seen so many bigs that don't know how to position themselves properly, or know when to dive or pop. I remember when I first started DOTA, it was overwhelming "What do I buy, where do I go, what the hell do I do lol" confusion on another level!

It would be great if this sort of thing began to elevate the community's IQ as a whole. So instead of "Which animation do I equip that gets me the most space" the discussion becomes "Oh look how they use these pieces together to create an efficient offense and great team defense, AND those guys are all great on the sticks"

[captainesteban]

It is officially branded as the 2K LEAGUE. There is no "e" in front of it.

[3ShowTime2]

Quote: Originally Posted by ph33

I do think this game will be much more accessible to everybody else though. Basketball at its core is easy to follow, but like in other games, lots of small details and depth. For example, everybody knows how to set a screen...but I've seen so many bigs that don't know how to position themselves properly, or know when to dive or pop. I remember when I first started DOTA, it was overwhelming "What do I buy, where do I go, what the hell do I do lol" confusion on another level!

For sure, thats the great chance for 2k and sports games in general. Anyone can watch a basketball game and cheer for his team as long as he knows the ball needs to be put in the basket. Fundamentally they have access to a much larger audience than all other games. I really wonder why it has taken sports game such a long time to get a foot in the esports scene. Maybe technical reasons, I dont know.