Let’s talk about the 5-Out offense in Pro-Am

[splashmountain]

Quote: Originally Posted by Erithtotl

One issue is that a lockdown (As well as a lot of archetypes) can be viable in Team Pro Am because your team knows your strengths and weaknesses and plays to those strengths. But if you want to use your myplayer anywhere else (walk on, playground, etc) lockdown is terribly ineffective because it can't dribble or shoot. I had a pure lockdown PG and he had speed with ball and mid-range both below 60. He moved so slowly opponents would either double whenever I had the ball, or play way off and dare me to shoot, ruining spacing for my team. So if you want a player who can work in all formats, offensive builds rule. someone who is totally dedicated to team pro am can thrive with a lockdown, but a lot of slightly less hardcore people want to be able to be effective in other formats as well.

sounds like 2k needs to correct the players then. patrick beverly doesnt have wicked handles. but he's still kind of fast with the basketball. who in their right mind believes a guy that is under 6'4 thats a defensive pg isnt quick or fast with the ball? doesnt make logic sense. now can that person shake people a lot? NO. they dont have that kind of handle. The problem is they attach speed with ball, to ball handling. which are two different things.

There are guys that are super fast in a straight line with the ball but can't properly do a speed cross over without losing the ball half the time. they can only drive hard right or hard left. thats how you do that logic in the game. dont nerf my speed with ball because you dont want an OP archetype. make the archetypes more realistic all around and you wont have to nurf anything.

[splashmountain]

Quote: Originally Posted by SeaTownGamer

It’s not just shooters. I feel players should be punished for spamming dribble moves. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

allow players to spam moves when not guarded. but if I'm on your right hip. and you spam a crossover. and the ball comes to your right hand where my body is. i need that ball to come loose. and make it a live loose ball. not a fake loose ball like after you block a shot and how it almost always goes back to the offense. make it a 50/50 chance of either offense or defense grabbing that ball. if they do this, that would completely kill off the fake dribble gawds. fake meaning they are not actually good at faking you out with their moves. they just do it to trigger a bogus animation for ankle breaker and pray for a blow by animation to protect them.


the bonus a good dribbling archetype should have over one that doesnt have dribbling as their main thing is that the speed in which they dribble(not speed with the ball, there's a difference). when you see cp3 go thru his dribbling routing of crossover around the back and thru the legs. its very quick. bam bam bam bam bam bam. very quick rhythm.

If kawhi does the same dribble moves or even bron. its slower. Bam...Bam...Bam.

If some 6'10 dude that doesnt have dribbling in his archetype does the same moves. its even slower. Bam......Bam.......Bam.......Bam...

The rhythm effects how much easier it is for a defender to time poking the ball loose. this true for real life and it should be true for the game.

Spamming the steal button should get you called for a lot more fouls. this balances it.

constantly ramming into an offensive player is also a foul. so that should be called more often as well. again this balances everything. but nurfs nothing.

[splashmountain]

Quote: Originally Posted by Snowmonkey92

Put 5 Curry vs 5 Nathalie Portman, I bet they'll be around 80% from 3. That's how bad defensively purely offensive builds are. The very idea behind nerfing sharps' defense was to make them less viable and THEY ARE. The only thing 2K didn't thought about is that people will STILL choose this archetypes . Juste imagine we couldn't really choose our archetypes, that in order to keep a balanced game 2K put some quotas on what builds are availabe when we want to create a player so we could have a total of 33% defensive builds, 33% shooting builds, 33% slasher builds at any given time wether it's the first day or 1 week before the next 2K. You know what? Sharps will become the less viable builds and 5-out will be too much of a risk to be played because instead of having a terrible defender 90% of the time they will face a decent or a very good defender 66% of the time. That's why there's no need to nerf anything, we just need to learn that too much sharp leads to 5-out, if you want less 5-out, then play some other builds Is Kyle Korver the GOAT?? Of course not, because he's only good at shooting.But in a league where nobody can defend and all you do is basically playing a giant 3 points contest he'd probably be top 5 all time. Does that mean Kyle Korver is OP? Same thing with center , nowadays the pace is too fast and the trend is to switch on everything, old school center can't do that , does that mean they're crap? If suddenly every team start to play slow, old school half court basketball players like Monroe or Kanter gonna be superstar. If in 2K the new trend is to play with a very defensive lineup then point forward, and pure post scorer will be the new OP The impact, the viability, the value of a player is largely based on how he fits his era and how basketball is played. Unlike real NBA we are the main actors on 2K, WE decide what build and what style we play, we don't need 10 years of teaching youth how to play differently, we just need to play more archetypes and the game WILL change .

but most wont change their player types due to it working to well with the 5 out and sharp players. you should not have to go to an all defensive lineup to stop this offense.

the reason is, because sharps shouldnt be stiffs on offense other than shooting. they are not. this is the main problem. they can still move around well, they can still dunk on people. there are not manys sharps in the nba dunking on anyone or moving around with the ball really smoothly.

a pure sharp is kyle korver. Kyle is not about to beat brandon ingram to the basket. and brandon ingram is not yet known as a lockdown defender. he's a decent defender that isnt super strong.

who i am should not completely dictate if my defense is real or not. i dont need to be a lockdown at all to put a solid hand in your face.

in what world does a supposed defender guarding me making me brick more 3's than when a person of the same height/length guards me? doesnt make real sense.

In the paint lockdowns should matter a little bit and shrink your fg% if the guy is in there about to cut your lane off. but on the outside, as long as the guy keeps up with me and gets a solid hand up. it should bother my shot. but in 2k thats not the case if you're not a partial lock or a full lock down defender.

[splashmountain]

Quote: Originally Posted by hargroverichie

We'll see how well this works, it should stop the dribbling spam at least. Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk

please read one of my post above about dribbling and how it should be setup. this post above is saying they are going to somewhat nurf the dribbling. dont do that either. because its not realistic. if a guy isnt around you and you want to dribble up a storm. go ahead. but the moment i get up on you and am on one side of you when you move that ball to that side. it should come loose. that would stop all of that silly over dribbling.

[Vic_Clancy]

Quote: Originally Posted by Erithtotl

One issue is that a lockdown (As well as a lot of archetypes) can be viable in Team Pro Am because your team knows your strengths and weaknesses and plays to those strengths. But if you want to use your myplayer anywhere else (walk on, playground, etc) lockdown is terribly ineffective because it can't dribble or shoot. I had a pure lockdown PG and he had speed with ball and mid-range both below 60. He moved so slowly opponents would either double whenever I had the ball, or play way off and dare me to shoot, ruining spacing for my team. So if you want a player who can work in all formats, offensive builds rule. someone who is totally dedicated to team pro am can thrive with a lockdown, but a lot of slightly less hardcore people want to be able to be effective in other formats as well.

Agreed with every word in this. I was initially going to make a build with defensive stopper in it, but the offensive stats just take too much of a hit. I primarily play offline career and park, and it was just too much of a sacrifice to make.

[Vic_Clancy]

Quote: Originally Posted by splashmountain

please read one of my post above about dribbling and how it should be setup. this post above is saying they are going to somewhat nurf the dribbling. dont do that either. because its not realistic. if a guy isnt around you and you want to dribble up a storm. go ahead. but the moment i get up on you and am on one side of you when you move that ball to that side. it should come loose. that would stop all of that silly over dribbling.

Agreed in principle. "Guarded" moves should have more affect on this mechanic than unguarded moves, and simple left to rights while you wait for the play to develop should punish you.

If i'm standing at the top of the key yo-yoing the ball, while the defender is just standing back watching me, it shouldn't affect my "dribble fatigue." However, I think it is pretty uncommon for a guy to be unguarded, throwing serious crossovers in the NBA. So i'm not too concerned.

Ideally, it just affects those guys whose whole game is centered around throwing 3,101 moves and trying to get the ankle breaker animation (selfishly, because I always end up with these guys on my team in park, and hate watching them throw move after move then chuck up a bad shot).

[MrWrestling3]

Quote: Originally Posted by Erithtotl

One issue is that a lockdown (As well as a lot of archetypes) can be viable in Team Pro Am because your team knows your strengths and weaknesses and plays to those strengths. But if you want to use your myplayer anywhere else (walk on, playground, etc) lockdown is terribly ineffective because it can't dribble or shoot. I had a pure lockdown PG and he had speed with ball and mid-range both below 60. He moved so slowly opponents would either double whenever I had the ball, or play way off and dare me to shoot, ruining spacing for my team. So if you want a player who can work in all formats, offensive builds rule. someone who is totally dedicated to team pro am can thrive with a lockdown, but a lot of slightly less hardcore people want to be able to be effective in other formats as well.

Yep,with the current system, Secondary archetypes don't too add much effectiveness(unless going Pure), and online you pretty well have to go Defense Primary for Gold Defense badges (to counter Offense Primary Gold badges).

That leaves you with going a hybrid build and being somewhat disadvantaged on offense, or going pure and being REALLY disadvantaged on offense. For me it's usually tolerable with people who understand PnR offense, and terrible with people who don't.

[jyoung]

The 6'5" pure lockdown defender (or slashing defender) was a good "5-out-stopper" build at the start of 2K18 when people were running 5-out offenses with actual point guards.

But once the community discovered how overpowered the 6'10" point forward builds were, lockdowns became an irrelevant archetype, because you can't create a lockdown in 2K18 that's simultaneously fast enough to stay in front of a point forward's dribble moves, tall enough to consistently contest his shots into misses, and strong enough to prevent blowby animations from regularly occurring.

Now that everyone runs the 5-out offense with a 6'10" point forward, the only way to consistently stop it is to play tight on the three point line to take away the threat of a jump shot, and then run a 3-man rotation to cutoff all drives to the basket (corner defender runs to the rim to stop the ball, wing defender rotates to corner, top of the key defender rotates to wing).