Does 2K need a better Shot Contest?

[Kushmir]

IMO the only real way to improve defense is with good core mechanics, 2K19 has literally been a referendum on why adding broken mechanics and making steals EZ Mode was a bad idea.

First Thing: I'm not the enemy of good shooting. I believe contested shots should still go in--just at a lower rate, obviously. One of the worst aspects of past 2Ks was that contesting virtually guaranteed a miss. Thats the worst kind of Single Outcome.

We've all defended a good shooter--you need to be able to contest at the drop of a hat, they will literally pull from ANYWHERE. Its why for years i've advocated for a change so that R-stick AT the shooter is contesting his shot. Its quick, easy, requires skill and input and direction from the user...and ultimately would even let you contest layups, from behind and when you need to close distance. And shouldn't Contesting should be consistent regardless of shot-type? Think about it, when you're defending a fastbreak its completely counter-intuitive to use L2 and up on the stick in the heat of the moment. Pointing at the offensive player just feels more natural.

This would also help with the issue of zig-zagging sharps/stretch 4s in Pro-Am.

I had this game 3 days ago where I was defending Korver and he shot really well, but there were virtually no "red" contests when I thought they were appropriate. While only a dev can really answer why, IMO it was because my defender wasnt in textbook "in front" position--a better contest addresses that. I'd like to hope it was because I was using my weakest perimeter defenders but the game just doesn't have that much depth at the moment--as much as we'd like it to.

On that note, years ago Madden made the mistake of allowing users to turn bad defenders into all-pros and we definitely dont want to see that here. You'll see that I put Simmons on him in the 4th--but for the best results we should always have to use the best defender. In its current state the game allows Drummond to stay with CP3 on the perimeter (blocking foul anyone?) and guys like Javale to rip ball-handlers for back-court steals. Gameplay shouldn't double down on those horrible decisions--it should REVERSE them.

Lastly, a deeper more Intuitive Contest for defenders means we no longer have only triangle to defend on the perimeter or in the paint....this opens up the the ability to punish defenders that leave their feet for blocks--which the game sorely needs.

Here's the game, let me know what you guys think:

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[Kushmir]

Re: Does 2K need a better Shot Contest?

Almost forgot the stats:

Korver shot 20 threes (converting 8) 7 two's (converting 3) 3 layups (converting 2) and 1 FT for 35pts.

Here's a few of the contests I thought should have been "RED". I totally get that JJ and Shamet are bad defenders (its why I use them) and bad defenders should be penalized for their ratings.

You'll notice I dont use block to defend jump-shots, I use Contest. I anticipate a time when leaving your feet will be punished so I dont play that way--and its a bad habit to begin with. Here are a few of my contests on made shots:

[Bulletproof86]

Re: Does 2K need a better Shot Contest?

2k has reached every goal they set, they dont need anything!


Sales? check!
Amount of microtransactions? check!
Active players who are spending money on MyTeam, MyCareer etc? check!


As long the numbers are correct, nothing will ever change!

[MrWrestling3]

Re: Does 2K need a better Shot Contest?

Agreed on the need for a better/more intuitive shot contest system. On every level of organized play, most good coaches teach that defensively it's almost always better to get your hands up and bother the shooter than leaving your feet.

[The 24th Letter]

Re: Does 2K need a better Shot Contest?

I think they took a step in the right direction with contests this year. In fact, they've backed a bit off their hand down man down philosophy they started the year off with (Probably for the better online, not so much offline). The past 3 years defenders were rewarded by simply running at the shooters stomach or being in the general vicinity.

I like the fact that you have to be aligned to register a solid contest. Korver specifically makes a lot his money coming right of screens with a hand at the the side of his face or lunging past it trying to recover...

I do think we need more contextual contests though....the rigidness of the current system shows in the video where the animation of the contest takes away the quality of it.

[nova91]

Re: Does 2K need a better Shot Contest?

For a good shot contest system, height, wingspan, weight and strength HAVE to matter in this game. You can’t have players like Whiteside, Marc Gasol or Tyson Chandler getting slid out of the way by guards they have 9+ inches and 40+ pounds on for easy buckets over their outstretched hands.

If I switch Giannis onto a player like Felton his length is going to bother him on the perimeter, and just about every shot he would put up would be a good contest if he’s within 2-3 feet of him simply because of his length.

You also have to have a system where the defender has better ball tracking the higher his defensive IQ is and they can contest with either the left, right or both hands depending on their positioning and where the shot is coming from. You think smart players are going to let a lefty keep pulling up in their face while constantly contesting towards the shooters right side or a good shot blocker is going to contest with his right on a player driving to the rim with his right? They’re smart enough to adjust which hand they’re gonna use to

[Kushmir]

Re: Does 2K need a better Shot Contest?

Agreed on the need for a better/more intuitive shot contest system. On every level of organized play, most good coaches teach that defensively it's almost always better to get your hands up and bother the shooter than leaving your feet.

BINGO. This long-overdue gameplay improvement gives defenders options other than block/strip and helps bring the shooter/defender interaction full circle--which is sorely needed.

We won't/shouldn't get the ability to draw fouls until contesting is deep and fully fleshed out.

[Kushmir]

Re: Does 2K need a better Shot Contest?

I like the fact that you have to be aligned to register a solid contest. Korver specifically makes a lot his money coming right of screens with a hand at the the side of his face or lunging past it trying to recover....

Sure does. Its the reason I don't have a problem with contested shots going down--we all remember 2K15 and 2K16. But how many go down? SURE. My main issue was virtually no red contests. I thought I was in good position on alot of those.

My other issue was most of his shots were just pulling up in front of the defender--he might have used screens and went "over top" 4 times. I think he was 1-4 there. This was his most open shot IMO, it wasn't off a screen tho:

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[ksuttonjr76]

Re: Does 2K need a better Shot Contest?

I'm liking the idea of adding more context based hands up animations.

[Kushmir]

Re: Does 2K need a better Shot Contest?

I'm liking the idea of adding more context based hands up animations.

I like to think of them as Contest animations instead since they can be vs layups or outside shots. That way R-stick + the modifier (L2) can be used for steal. Obviously contests from behind like the ones below wouldn't be as effective as having good position but right now we cant do that...hands up from behind? Makes no sense.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/zgJlz5Esp5s" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/jCvDPfrkI-s" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ucDm5swZ-h8" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Almost forgot, Korver's 35 is the equivalent of 63pts in 12 min qtrs.

[Kushmir]

Re: Does 2K need a better Shot Contest?

Also, Korver got open here because I mistimed my contest...this is good balance--contesting shouldn't be some magic bullet and should be timing-focused like every other aspect of gameplay. As a result he attacks my close-out, and he's open when he pulls from 18ft and hits, which is a good result.

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[MrWrestling3]

Re: Does 2K need a better Shot Contest?

BINGO. This long-overdue gameplay improvement gives defenders options other than block/strip and helps bring the shooter/defender interaction full circle--which is sorely needed.

We won't/shouldn't get the ability to draw fouls until contesting is deep and fully fleshed out.

This is a good point; while steals and blocks are certainly part of the defensive "toolbox" if you will, in 2K it feels at times like they are a bit over relied upon as sort of a flashy place holder for good,if less impressive looking, fundamental defense.

Now in a sense I get why that is: many 2K fans and RL NBA fans mostly want to see spectacular plays (i.e. flashy passes,crossovers,dunks, blocks,steals,etc.) and good shooting over fundamentals of any sort. The thing is, from a game play standpoint, all of the systems need to be as deep and engaging as possible to make it a consistently rewarding experience. Overlooking some of the most basic aspects of the game is probably not the best way to go about it.

[Pokes404]

Re: Does 2K need a better Shot Contest?

Agreed on the need for a better/more intuitive shot contest system. On every level of organized play, most good coaches teach that defensively it's almost always better to get your hands up and bother the shooter than leaving your feet.

Leaving your feet is always going to be more bothersome to a shooter in real life than just putting your hands up. So I'm fine with 2K making triangle the strongest contest. I would just like to see defenders get punished more often for biting on pump fakes and recklessly leaving their feet (shooting/blocking fouls, slower recovery time after a bad block attempt). As it is now, too often you can just get on your Pogo stick and not really get punished for it.


I will say, I'm a little confused exactly what is being asked for in this thread. From a mechanics standpoint, it seems like we have a lot of these tools at our disposal. You can hold the R-stick toward the shooter to contest the shot (you can even do it while holding L2 to keep your hands up and more quickly contest the pullup). You can also flick the stick toward the shooter to get a stronger contest at the risk of biting and getting yourself out of position. There's even the vertical contest, but unfortunately, no one really uses it much because the risk-reward between it and just pressing triangle and going for the block isn't really there currently (see first paragraph).



Are people asking for more variations in the contest animations and/or tweaks to the percentage of open/contested shots that fall? Reworking of what 2K considers bad-average-good-great contests?


*** BTW, I hope no one takes that in a "stop complaining people" kind of way because that's certainly not how I meant it. ***

[Kushmir]

Re: Does 2K need a better Shot Contest?

Leaving your feet is always going to be more bothersome to a shooter in real life than just putting your hands up.

Bothersome? lol...maybe for the defender. If they guess wrong they're cooked. In reality NBA players expose dudes who leave their feet...its also super foul-prone.

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[nova91]

Re: Does 2K need a better Shot Contest?

Leaving your feet is always going to be more bothersome to a shooter in real life than just putting your hands up. So I'm fine with 2K making triangle the strongest contest. I would just like to see defenders get punished more often for biting on pump fakes and recklessly leaving their feet (shooting/blocking fouls, slower recovery time after a bad block attempt). As it is now, too often you can just get on your Pogo stick and not really get punished for it.

Nah man, if you’re in good position, closing out, hands up and in the shooters face, crowding his air space while making sure not to get too far under him is always the way to go. Jumping at the shooter more often than not leaves you outta position and leaves you open to fouling the shooter.