Are the Bailout Fouls Excessive?

**MrWrestling3** · 10-10-2019, 04:41 PM

Re: Are the Bailout Fouls Excessive?

As far as "offline", in My Career there are times when it feels like the game calls a "phantom foul" because it wants to sub you out for a while.Even in other offline modes vs CPU there is a noticable tendency after drawing a foul for your AI team mates to almost immediately commit a foul, as if the game is forcing calls to keep the team foul count close or even.This seems to be especially the case when I am being careful to play clean and not commit fouls myself.

In the case of online, I think it's a bad design decision/flaw in order to appeal to the casual fan who thinks that every drive to the hoop is always a foul, or a Dunk/Layup plus the foul.

**Shadow** · 10-10-2019, 06:44 PM

Re: Are the Bailout Fouls Excessive?

My mycareer teammates commit bailout fouls non stop. Even the great defenders. It’s kind of annoying.

**Kushmir** · 10-10-2019, 07:56 PM

Re: Are the Bailout Fouls Excessive?

Gentle Reminder the AI will let these plays go but resort to bail-out fouls for Good and Elite defenders.

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AGAIN: We don't need this HUGE amount of scripted fouls...We need gameplay to call the EGREGIOUS fouls it currently overlooks:

**MackZillaTV** · 10-10-2019, 08:57 PM

Re: Are the Bailout Fouls Excessive?

The phantom fouls and BS fouls were added because 2K needed something to make people use the challenge feature. Thing is those fouls happen in Park, Rec, ProAm, and since you can’t call challenges in there, it’s a 100% bailout for folks who just got their shot blocked or took a dumb shot.

**MrWrestling3** · 10-10-2019, 09:21 PM

Re: Are the Bailout Fouls Excessive?

Originally posted by Kushmir

AGAIN: We don't need this HUGE amount of scripted fouls...We need gameplay to call the EGREGIOUS fouls it currently overlooks:

I always wonder if alot of the issue has to do with the Draw Foul rating...is 2K more or less rolling dice behind the scenes and when it determines a foul will happen it forces it to happen regardless of the actual situation on the court?

**ItchyNscratchy** · 10-10-2019, 10:02 PM

Re: Are the Bailout Fouls Excessive?

Originally posted by MackZillaTV

The phantom fouls and BS fouls were added because 2K needed something to make people use the challenge feature. Thing is those fouls happen in Park, Rec, ProAm, and since you can’t call challenges in there, it’s a 100% bailout for folks who just got their shot blocked or took a dumb shot.

The challenge feature doesnt even work for fouls. I tried many times to press the timeout button after a foul and it doesnt give me a challenge play or timeout option at all. Challenges only work for out of bounds but its broken anyways because its always called right.

**Phillyboi207** · 10-10-2019, 10:04 PM

Re: Are the Bailout Fouls Excessive?

So I only saw an actual foul animation on the one play

A lot of the “bail out” calls are a result of poor defense

I’ll let you in on a secret

The odds of getting a foul increase exponentionally when you get a full head of steam going towards the rim.

When you’re pressing beyond the 3pt line and allowing the defender to blow by you the there’s a decent chance a foul will be called. If the ball handler has a high accelleration it’s even more likely. Especially considering draw foul vs foul tendencies.

The fouls you were complaining about weren’t actual foul animations outside of Bolden driving from the baseline. When you pumpfake it’s still possible for the defender to block the shot on the way down. That’s been in the game forever(not a big fan but in the other thread you were upset about pumpfake fouls so I dunno what you want)

I hope this helps you. I’ve been playing 2k since 2k1 and I’ve been high ranked before.

**Kushmir** · 10-11-2019, 09:11 AM

Re: Are the Bailout Fouls Excessive?

Originally posted by MrWrestling3

I always wonder if alot of the issue has to do with the Draw Foul rating...is 2K more or less rolling dice behind the scenes and when it determines a foul will happen it forces it to happen regardless of the actual situation on the court?

IMO it has very little to do with Draw Foul rating. The help defenders just resort to tackling more than they actually do making a defensive play. Made even worse by the fact that in too many instances they ignore help responsibility.

**Kushmir** · 10-11-2019, 09:41 AM

Re: Are the Bailout Fouls Excessive?

Originally posted by Phillyboi207

So I only saw an actual foul animation on the one play

The fouls you were complaining about weren’t actual foul animations outside of Bolden driving from the baseline. When you pumpfake it’s still possible for the defender to block the shot on the way down. That’s been in the game forever(not a big fan but in the other thread you were upset about pumpfake fouls so I dunno what you want)

I hope this helps you. I’ve been playing 2k since 2k1 and I’ve been high ranked before.

[emoji23] WHOAH. Thats alot...lets unpack this:

1) I wasn't upset at anything, I was pointing out how there's a huge gap in the defensive gameplay when one user does a pump fake/or is IDLE/Static and the other doesn't fall for it by jumping. SIMPLE.

2) You're saying blocks on the way down... Which is bad timing....should be rewarded? That its a good thing? You're serious? lol...hmmm, let me tell you how silly that sounds:

Timing is everything in sports gaming. Look at Madden's kick meter, 2Ks shot meter or even steals and things like free throws: You literally just said a bad release/horrible timing is OK. That we should REWARD that kind of thing. That's probably not the most ridiculous thing i've heard this week...but its close.

FACT: In H2H TIMING and COUNTERS is the ONLY THING that matter....they're the CORE. That strikes at the core of PVP where someone chooses rock and you choose scissors. Or crosses right when you lean left....You're like: "Nah that shouldn't matter.."

[emoji23] [emoji23] [emoji23] [emoji23] [emoji23] [emoji23] [emoji23]

By that rationale I should be able to spam jump as soon as someone does a post entry and if I get the ball on the way UP--or DOWN...I should get a block. That's what you're saying? [emoji58]

My last point is i'm super glad you've been ranked. THAT'S NICE. I'm preeeeeettttttty good at 2k as well. I win about 90% of my games. Its why I speak up about balance issues with the game that affect H2H play...so the game can be better overall--not for my sake. I speak up specifically because I know people will make a skill argument with people who're average. You can't do that with me. Chances are i'm better than you......Like, ALOT BETTER. [emoji1541]

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**Phillyboi207** · 10-11-2019, 10:51 PM

Re: Are the Bailout Fouls Excessive?

Originally posted by Kushmir

[emoji23] WHOAH. Thats alot...lets unpack this:

1) I wasn't upset at anything, I was pointing out how there's a huge gap in the defensive gameplay when one user does a pump fake/or is IDLE/Static and the other doesn't fall for it by jumping. SIMPLE.

2) You're saying blocks on the way down... Which is bad timing....should be rewarded? That its a good thing? You're serious? lol...hmmm, let me tell you how silly that sounds:

Timing is everything in sports gaming. Look at Madden's kick meter, 2Ks shot meter or even steals and things like free throws: You literally just said a bad release/horrible timing is OK. That we should REWARD that kind of thing. That's probably not the most ridiculous thing i've heard this week...but its close.

FACT: In H2H TIMING and COUNTERS is the ONLY THING that matters....they're the CORE. That strikes at the core of PVP where someone chooses rock and you choose scissors. Or crosses right when you lean left....You're like: "Nah that shouldn't matter.."

[emoji23] [emoji23] [emoji23] [emoji23] [emoji23] [emoji23] [emoji23]

By that rationale I should be able to spam jump as soon as someone does a post entry and if I get the ball on the way UP--or DOWN...I should get a block. That's what you're saying? [emoji58]

My last point is i'm super glad you've been ranked. THAT'S NICE. I'm preeeeeettttttty good at 2k as well. I win about 90% of my games. Its why I speak up about balance issues with the game that affect H2H play...so the game can be better overall--not for my sake. I speak up specifically because I know people will make a skill argument with people who're average. You can't do that with me. Chances are i'm better than you......Like, ALOT BETTER. [emoji1541]

I lost my response so I’ll give a quicker one

1)Your first thread was you complaining that your computer teammates were fouling after the opponent picked up his dribble. The majority of the clips were either the cpu doing everything or poor positioning by you.

2) Sit your ego aside for a second. Half the stuff you responded with had nothing to do with what I said. Shots can get blocked on the way down irl as well and it happens in the game. I’m not a fan of it and I said as much. You have the option of waiting after the pumpfake till the defender flies by to get a clean layup off.

3) Are you here for feedback or to feed your ego? Even if we pretended you’re better than me I can 100% promose you it aint on defense. Your defense is suspect in 99% of the clips you post. Pressing offensive players 28 feet from the rim and offering no resistance once they blow by you is poor defense. You’re blaming the game because you lack defensive awareness. I can provide you full videos of my defense with sliders set to make defenses way harder.

The only reason I’m not highly ranked anymore is because I don’t care about my ranking anymore. The last time I even tried I got bored after this.
https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/mavsfan10...enshot/4004952

So E-peen measuring aside. Do you want to discuss the actual game mechanics or continue to pretend your bad defense is above criticism?

**MrWrestling3** · 10-12-2019, 07:43 AM

Re: Are the Bailout Fouls Excessive?

Originally posted by Kushmir

Well? Are they?

We've all seen them...Let me be clear: fouls in gameplay are good--having no fouls would be like a football game with no penalties. But when there's no logic to them and our Good and Elite defenders are just tackling guys? Thats bad gameplay. We started this discussion in the PNO thread but i'd like to get the offline/franchise POV:

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None of us would have a problem stomaching mismatches having a high foul outcome. Non-user actions are one of the best features 2K has...it makes the games feel AUTHENTIC. When I see a transition foul where the defender gets physical i'm usually ok with it (depending on the defender of course) but for 2K20 to have serious help defense issue...its stings when the few times our guys acknowledge they have to rotate they're doing their best Detroit Bad Boys impression:

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It prompts a discussion about how just how much non-user actions should affect the game. I've always been fine with them as they've been subtle and understated. To me as long as there's an element of authenticity (Mitchell Robinson is a foul machine for instance) and users are still deciding the outcomes it works.

I ended this game in 2K17 with spam to prove a point about how bad Neutral Outcomes are..especially in end-of-game situations:

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FACT: Scripted fouls can be at a minimum if gameplay simply calls the obvious and frequent fouls users commit. Gameplay simply doesn't need a huge number of AI fouls, it has PLENTY of BLATANT, Uncalled ones by users that should have SERIOUS PRIORITY. Its woefully inconsistent to script AI fouls almost at random before cleaning up the trash heap that is user fouls that the AI just flat out ignores [emoji58]

The annual Mavs/Philly matchup with my friend ended like this in 2K17 (The downside of zones were you had alot of blocking fouls) I thought it was ok...Risk/Reward:

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So? What say you guys?

On closer examination it really looks like the AI is just turbo jumping into the guy... why don't they ever use the vertical contest (Left stick away plus jump) to try and avoid fouling so much?

**MrWrestling3** · 10-12-2019, 07:56 AM

Re: Are the Bailout Fouls Excessive?

Originally posted by Phillyboi207

I lost my response so I’ll give a quicker one

1)Your first thread was you complaining that your computer teammates were fouling after the opponent picked up his dribble. The majority of the clips were either the cpu doing everything or poor positioning by you.

2) Sit your ego aside for a second. Half the stuff you responded with had nothing to do with what I said. Shots can get blocked on the way down irl as well and it happens in the game. I’m not a fan of it and I said as much. You have the option of waiting after the pumpfake till the defender flies by to get a clean layup off.

3) Are you here for feedback or to feed your ego? Even if we pretended you’re better than me I can 100% promose you it aint on defense. Your defense is suspect in 99% of the clips you post. Pressing offensive players 28 feet from the rim and offering no resistance once they blow by you is poor defense. You’re blaming the game because you lack defensive awareness. I can provide you full videos of my defense with sliders set to make defenses way harder.

The only reason I’m not highly ranked anymore is because I don’t care about my ranking anymore. The last time I even tried I got bored after this.
https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/mavsfan10...enshot/4004952

So E-peen measuring aside. Do you want to discuss the actual game mechanics or continue to pretend your bad defense is above criticism?

The rest of the post aside (that's between you two) I want to briefly comment on point #2 :

I will agree that blocks on the way down does happen sometimes IRL; I think the issue is more that happens more often in 2K than in the NBA, which can be frustrating.Also, animation wise alot of times the block on the way down looks like it should be a foul in 2K, which aggravates the situaton.

There is also a tendency for CPU players that mistime moves to be able to recover and get back into the play unrealistically often.

**Kushmir** · 10-12-2019, 08:29 AM

Re: Are the Bailout Fouls Excessive?

Originally posted by Phillyboi207

You have the option of waiting after the pumpfake till the defender flies by to get a clean layup off.

In some cases...in too many the defender gets a second jump before the offensive player can get a shot off--which is terrible for Risk/Reward balance. That's gameplay that rewards spam and bad-timing. SPAM is bad.

BALANCE comes before realism..."it happens in real life" is never a valid argument. 1) It happens too rarely to be worthy of mention as a videogame mechanic. Its like putting a shoe-string catch feature in the game because of the Immaculate Reception and other instances where the ball gets caught after a collision. A block on the way down is literally one of the worst mechanics in the game--I seriously can't believe someone is even validating it as something remotely ok.

Good timing is everything. Gameplay not emphasizing that is why we have THIS:

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FYI: I resort to Hands Up because I know how low the success rates are. The chances i'll be called for a reaching foul FAR EXCEED my chance at a strip and trying to block someone pump faking with an Elite player has a really high chance of them baiting you into a foul....which is what they WANT. I've thoroughly tested the stuff I comment about. Here the game doesn't even acknowledge my strip attempts because its AD, Even tho strips should be the natural counter:

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Its why i've said we need more defensive tools to counter this stuff....what you call complaining. [emoji849] Oh Ok...you think your defense is good because you go for every chasedown block, highlight recovery block or steal from behind? lol...I dont do that for the same reason you don't run out at Howard shooting for 3. ITS LOW PERCENTAGE. In addition, I anticipate a time when the game punishes stuff like that...so I don't play that way now. Right now the game will literally make the defender intangible rather than call a foul in the play below....it may not always be that way:

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Originally posted by Phillyboi207

The only reason I’m not highly ranked anymore is because I don’t care about my ranking anymore. The last time I even tried I got bored after this.

*YAWN* You're assuming others play for rank...I enjoy playing with my Sixers and basketball--if I was i'd try for the GOAT trophy--Most OSers could care less.

**Kushmir** · 10-12-2019, 09:01 AM

Re: Are the Bailout Fouls Excessive?

Originally posted by MrWrestling3

On closer examination it really looks like the AI is just turbo jumping into the guy... why don't they ever use the vertical contest (Left stick away plus jump) to try and avoid fouling so much?

Its a valid question...its what good and Elite defenders do. I think its just a mechanic that was waaaaay overdone.

Are the Bailout Fouls Excessive?

Are the Bailout Fouls Excessive?

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