2K21 needs to be completely positionless.

[Real2KInsider]

Quote: Originally Posted by TeamBuilder

I have a MyLeague where the A.I. 76ers signed Shaun Livingston and Derrick Favors. They started a lineup of Ben Simmons, Joel Embiid, Shaun Livingston, Derrick Favors, and Furkan Korkmaz against me in a MyLeague game... all because the stupid position system encourages them to get a PF (Favors) and think it makes sense to play him alongside Embiid, Simmons, and Livingston.

1. Player positions were updated across the league (i.e. Favors at C).
2. Favors has a high OVR so yeah why would he not start - this is working against your argument.
3. Livingston is a PG in the game so they literally played positionless as you suggested. You just hated the result.
4. The Sixers literally have a two center lineup IRL.

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You can't seriously defend a system that stupid -- a system that simply constructs a lineup and roster based on listed positions without considering the attributes/skills/abilities of the players and how they fit together.

Problem: Not every team views these attributes/skills/abilities the same way. The Sixers (who run Simmons as a PG and not a PF despite his lack of shooting ability) are demonstrably one of those teams. If anything Livingston is exactly the player they would target if they don't value shooting in guards.

You're asking an AI to evaluate basketball like a human and not think in black & white, without having the roof cave in. Good luck with that.

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I shouldn't even have to explain this to you.

You're not really explaining anything to me, so much as you keep repeating yourself ad nausea.

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More specifically, look at Covington. He is playing great as a rim protector because it's not about his listed position and height, but rather his skills.

More specifically, look at P.J. Tucker. In what universe do his attributes scream "play this man at Center". You're just as likely to have Westbrook/Harden matching up with centers on defense.

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Again, I shouldn't even have to explain this to you. Positions are shallowly categorical. That's it. Specific skillsets are much more important than listed positions. Positions are rigid and archaic. That's why you have teams foolishly play "stretch 5s" like Myers Leonard because he is a "center" when most of the time he is a waste of space. He doesn't rebound well, he doesn't defend the rim well, and he doesn't score well in the post. But teams look at him and say, "Oh gee, a 7'1" guy who can shoot the three, what an advantage to have a 'CENTER' who can stretch the floor." It's dumb. Just because he is tall he is stereotyped as a center. It's all nonsense. His skills simply aren't there. He is one dimensional.

The only thing "rigid and dumb" is ironically your stance on positionless basketball. Meyers Leonard is a poster-boy for what you are arguing for - he starts next to Bam Adebayo (another center) based PRECISELY on specific skills - shooting & rebounding. Yet you go out of your way to trash this player because he doesn't meet YOUR view for what skills his team values.

Lest we forget what multi-dimensional powerhouses P.J. Tucker, Danuel House, and Ben Mclemore are. You don't even know what you're arguing for. Please keep explaining it to me though.

[TeamBuilder]

Quote: Originally Posted by ksuttonjr76

What I come from "I shouldn't have to explain that to you" translate to "I really don't know what I'm talkin about, but I'm going to pretend like I know what I'm talkin about."

I'm glad I don't come from the same place. Also, I did explain it to you...

[TeamBuilder]

Quote: Originally Posted by Rashidi

1. Player positions were updated across the league (i.e. Favors at C). 2. Favors has a high OVR so yeah why would he not start - this is working against your argument. 3. Livingston is a PG in the game so they literally played positionless as you suggested. You just hated the result. 4. The Sixers literally have a two center lineup IRL.

None of your list of 4 arguments are correct, relevant, or good points.

1. Irrelevant. He was listed as a PF in the MyLeague. A roster update doesn't change that in an already active MyLeague. I shouldn't have to explain this to you.
2. Weak argument. A high OVR doesn't automatically mean the player has to start. Lou Williams. Montrezl Harrell. Remember Manu? Remember OKC Harden? And a high OVR is in fact the reason why Livingston is foolishly starting alongside Simmons... his OVR is high enough that the 76ers decided to play him at one of his two listed positions (SG). I shouldn't have to explain this to you.
3. Livingston is listed as PG/SG. The 76ers started him at SG (a position he is literally listed at). It's NOT positionless basketball if he is playing a position he is listed at. I shouldn't have to explain this to you.
4. Al Horford spaces the floor. Derrick Favors does not. That's why the 76ers can play him alongside Embiid in what you call a "two center lineup." Horford has the skills to make him a serviceable fit alongside Embiid and Simmons. Favors does not. I shouldn't have to explain this to you.

Should I even bother reading the rest of your post after dismantling each of your first four nonsensical points?

[Real2KInsider]

Quote: Originally Posted by TeamBuilder

None of your list of 4 arguments are correct, relevant, or good points.

Great! When you list some good ones of your own, we'll be in business.

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1. Irrelevant. He was listed as a PF in the MyLeague. A roster update doesn't change that in an already active MyLeague. I shouldn't have to explain this to you.

So the game is at fault because you use an outdated roster? Lol. Favors was listed at PF because he literally started next to Rudy Gobert. Explain that, lmao.

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2. Weak argument. A high OVR doesn't automatically mean the player has to start. Lou Williams. Montrezl Harrell. Remember Manu? Remember OKC Harden?

Weak argument. The only reason those players don't start is because they have an AI control "Force Non-Starter" preventing them from doing so. Why? Because the AI literally can't distinguish whether they've overloaded on scoring or not. Every team has a unique situation.

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And a high OVR is in fact the reason why Livingston is foolishly starting alongside Simmons... his OVR is high enough that the 76ers decided to play him at one of his two listed positions (SG). I shouldn't have to explain this to you.

Nah dude, you should try actually working on 2K rosters some time. Last year the game would start Zhaire Smith > J.J. Redick despite the lower OVR. It would also start T.J. McConnell and push Ben Simmons to the frontcourt. Why? Because the game already incorporates skill preference elements. This is literally a fraction of the roster chaos that would ensue if we took positions away.

But please, explain away your cockamamie theories that pretend what you're asking is remotely realistic to accomplish.

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4. Al Horford spaces the floor. Derrick Favors does not. That's why the 76ers can play him alongside Embiid in what you call a "two center lineup." Horford has the skills to make him a serviceable fit alongside Embiid and Simmons. Favors does not. I shouldn't have to explain this to you.

Joel Embiid spaces the floor. Quite the conundrum!

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Should I even bother reading the rest of your post after dismantling each of your first four nonsensical points?

sHoUlD i EvEn BoThEr ReAdInG

"Dismantling". Bruh. You're a coward. Time to log off and look in the mirror.

[Real2KInsider]

Lets see what happens when we actually make players "positionless".

Listing all players at PG/NA (taking away positions) results in the following 2K generated lineups:

Sixers
PG: Josh Richardson
SG: Ben Simmons
SF: Matisse Thybulle
PF: Joel Embiid
C: Al Horford
Not starting: Tobias Harris

Lakers
PG: Rajon Rondo
SG: LeBron James
SF: Anthony Davis
PF: Kyle Kuzma
C: Dion Waiters
Not starting: Danny Green, Avery Bradley, JaVale McGee

Nuggets
PG: Monte Morris
SG: Jamal Murray
SF: Nikola Jokic
PF: Paul Millsap
C: Will Barton
Not starting: Gary Harris

Rockets
PG: Russell Westbrook
SG: James Harden
SF: Robert Covington
PF: P.J. Tucker
C: Austin Rivers
Not starting: Danuel House

Nets
PG: Kyrie Irving
SG: Kevin Durant
SF: Spencer Dinwiddie
PF: Caris LeVert
C: DeAndre Jordan

Knicks
PG: Elfrid Payton
SG: Frank Ntilikina
SF: Kadeem Allen
PF: Julius Randle
C: R.J. Barrett
Not starting: Mo Harkless, Taj Gibson

Mavericks
PG: Luka Doncic
SG: Jalen Brunson
SF: Seth Curry
PF: Tim Hardaway Jr
C: Kristaps Porzingis
Not starting: Dwight Powell, Dorian Finney-Smith

It was an interesting theory.

[tru11]

Asking the game to solve a human related problem is silly.

Changing a label is not going to stop someone in doing what he wants to do.

Wether you label him a big , PF, C or whatever that PERSON is going to camp in the paint if he wants to do just that for whatever reason.

Its not a game job to fix a person basketball IQ.

[TeamBuilder]

Quote: Originally Posted by Rashidi

Lets see what happens when we actually make players "positionless". Listing all players at PG/NA (taking away positions) results in the following 2K generated lineups: Sixers PG: Josh Richardson SG: Ben Simmons SF: Matisse Thybulle PF: Joel Embiid C: Al Horford Not starting: Tobias Harris Lakers PG: Rajon Rondo SG: LeBron James SF: Anthony Davis PF: Kyle Kuzma C: Dion Waiters Not starting: Danny Green, Avery Bradley, JaVale McGee Nuggets PG: Monte Morris SG: Jamal Murray SF: Nikola Jokic PF: Paul Millsap C: Will Barton Not starting: Gary Harris Rockets PG: Russell Westbrook SG: James Harden SF: Robert Covington PF: P.J. Tucker C: Austin Rivers Not starting: Danuel House Nets PG: Kyrie Irving SG: Kevin Durant SF: Spencer Dinwiddie PF: Caris LeVert C: DeAndre Jordan Knicks PG: Elfrid Payton SG: Frank Ntilikina SF: Kadeem Allen PF: Julius Randle C: R.J. Barrett Not starting: Mo Harkless, Taj Gibson Mavericks PG: Luka Doncic SG: Jalen Brunson SF: Seth Curry PF: Tim Hardaway Jr C: Kristaps Porzingis Not starting: Dwight Powell, Dorian Finney-Smith It was an interesting theory.

You realize that you are ABSOLUTELY proving my point, right? That categorizing players by position is dumb. You are freaking out and bolding the players that are stupidly listed according to the archaic position-based system. ACTUALLY LOOK AT THOSE GROUPS OF FIVE. They all have skills that compliment each other and each would make serviceable lineups (and that's without even having a system in place that prioritizes attributes more than positions). The only reason you see anything wrong with those groups of five is because you are stupidly looking at categorical positions.

Haha, "Oh no Dion Waiters is a center! Oh golly, how awful." Look, genius, Anthony Davis is protecting the rim and guarding the post. Your precious positional system is the only thing that is messing up those lineups. Haha, wow, I can't believe I had to explain that to you.

Lol, thank you, thank you, thank you. Not only did you prove my point, but you also did the work to provide the evidence that proves my point. Wow, you make things so easy. I'd love for you to be the lawyer on the other bench.

[Real2KInsider]

Quote: Originally Posted by TeamBuilder

You are freaking out and bolding the players that are stupidly listed according to the archaic position-based system.

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Haha, "Oh no Dion Waiters is a center! Oh golly, how awful." Look, genius, Anthony Davis is protecting the rim and guarding the post.

*Facepalm*

Except he's not. That isn't how the AI works. Davis won't operate in the post - he'll be standing on the 3pt line in Lakers sets. Because like it or not, teams still run 1-5 sets.
He'll function as a "3" in the Lakers playbook. He'll guard other "3s" on the other end.

You have yet to show any indication of actually comprehending how the AI works in the game, nor how many gameplay elements are actually tied to positions.

But by all means, continue to fantasize about being remotely correct.


Side note: it's pretty comical you take no issue with Waiters starting over Green/McGee/Bradley, lol