Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

[strosdood]

Quote: Originally Posted by rudyjuly2

Are we going to get a fix this year or not lol? Pick and roll is such a basic play and there are just some terrible plays that happen too much. I’m all for natural fluctuation and odd plays once in awhile but it can be abused. Jumping through hoops with a ton of slider adjustments that can wreck other stuff isn’t ideal either. In this example below, why does Covington get lost and play horrible defence? A Junior varsity HS kid would play better. Give up the outside and then not even turn and try. Covington wouldn’t play like this in-game if it was an ISO play. So why does he do it in this scenario? Does the game jump from a normal defence to a separate PNR gameplay engine where defenders are dazed, confused and useless? Covington isn’t even in bad position. He just doesn’t try. Why? https://twitter.com/rudyjuly2/status...303357443?s=21

It almost seemed like he was expecting help to come and didn’t wanna completely leave his man but there was no one protecting the basket so it ended up being a easy layup instead


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

[The 24th Letter]

Quote: Originally Posted by ChaseB

This is an incorrect statement. He does discuss the player speed issue, but he says it's not something he can control -- it's in the back half of the video. He had more input on player speed in the past but the community at large did not agree with his input as much (aka Czar went too sim and people didn't like not being able to easily blow by people etc.) And him being honest about how he couldn't fix certain pick and roll issues -- which he did before release -- is refreshing to me because he did tell us ahead of time so people could make their own buying decision. He explained why he couldn't fix it and what he did instead as a base for future years.

That Q&A was about as transparent & open as you're going to get from a dev....even opened the door for feedback.. I feel like that's what we're constantly asking for as a community. Anyone hit Czar with vids or comment on his YT he said he'll be monitoring for the next couple of weeks?

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk

[Lagoa]

EccentricMeat, I really appreciate all of your attempt and detailed explanation of how to try to fix the pick n roll problem in the game.

After using your sliders and your roster changes, the game improves, but honestly, very little ... the problem still exists and appears all the time.

And particularly, after making the modifications, the players move very unreally, everyone is exaggeratedly slow, with slow movements .... anyway, thank you, but for me it didn't solve the problem.

The game is still broken for me, because now, I can master pick n roll with almost any player.

[alabamarob]

Quote: Originally Posted by The 24th Letter

That Q&A was about as transparent & open as you're going to get from a dev....even opened the door for feedback.. I feel like that's what we're constantly asking for as a community. Anyone hit Czar with vids or comment on his YT he said he'll be monitoring for the next couple of weeks? Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk

I sent him a comment about the defensive settings not working. I didn’t want to send him a video unless he asked for it.

[rudyjuly2]

I think the comment about speed or pace being the issue is false. In my last video the defender got beat because he was an idiot. And even if he was super slow then just sink to the basket and dare the mid range! Speed isn’t the issue. It’s decision making and a lack of awareness at protecting the rim at all costs. Sliders can help the PNR issue but the under the hood stuff needs fixing.

That said, while many of us have issues with beating the cpu with it, how many of you have complained about the cpu abusing us with it? It doesn’t happen! I play a mix of on ball and off ball defence and it seems that my defenders play it better and/or the cpu dribbler doesn’t really make me pay. I play on a modified all-star but I keep both user and cpu sliders the same. In this clip from tonight rookie Bey (who projects to be a decent defender but is rated 72 or 73 in the game) plays defence better than Covington. Bey at least keeps moving his feet unlike flat footed cpu Covington. And Plumlee helps too. Any chance there is a bug in the cpu logic that doesn’t mess us up? Or am I crazy?

https://twitter.com/rudyjuly2/status...138680833?s=21

[EccentricMeat]

Quote: Originally Posted by rudyjuly2

I think the comment about speed or pace being the issue is false. In my last video the defender got beat because he was an idiot. And even if he was super slow then just sink to the basket and dare the mid range! Speed isn’t the issue. It’s decision making and a lack of awareness at protecting the rim at all costs. Sliders can help the PNR issue but the under the hood stuff needs fixing. That said, while many of us have issues with beating the cpu with it, how many of you have complained about the cpu abusing us with it? It doesn’t happen! I play a mix of on ball and off ball defence and it seems that my defenders play it better and/or the cpu dribbler doesn’t really make me pay. I play on a modified all-star but I keep both user and cpu sliders the same. In this clip from tonight rookie Bey (who projects to be a decent defender but is rated 72 or 73 in the game) plays defence better than Covington. Bey at least keeps moving his feet unlike flat footed cpu Covington. And Plumlee helps too. Any chance there is a bug in the cpu logic that doesn’t mess us up? Or am I crazy? https://twitter.com/rudyjuly2/status...138680833?s=21

No that’s just how defense plays sometimes. Covington on the CPU team won’t ALWAYS stand there ignoring the play, sometimes he will switch and sometimes he will drop. Likewise your AI teammates won’t always help, sometimes they’ll just stand and watch.

Jacking up the Help Defense coach slider will get the defense rotating down much more often, and increasing Help Defense Strength will improve the AI of those help defenders. Then tweaking the Contest Shots tendency coupled with the Defense Strength sliders will improve how well the defense then affects the layup/shot. I get people thinking “I don’t want to mess with sliders”, but if you want any improvement you’re gonna have to.

[CujoMatty]

Quote: Originally Posted by ChaseB

This is an incorrect statement. He does discuss the player speed issue, but he says it's not something he can control -- it's in the back half of the video. He had more input on player speed in the past but the community at large did not agree with his input as much (aka Czar went too sim and people didn't like not being able to easily blow by people etc.) And him being honest about how he couldn't fix certain pick and roll issues -- which he did before release -- is refreshing to me because he did tell us ahead of time so people could make their own buying decision. He explained why he couldn't fix it and what he did instead as a base for future years.

ahhhhhh gotcha, guess I missed that part.

I find it odd that no one brought it up that Czar said there were issues with PNR on this site pre release. Quite a few comments were made about the trailer and short gameplay videos that people were seeing real bad defense in those clips. No one said "ya Czar said PNR is borked". Honestly I feel kind of dumb because I constantly commented that people shouldnt judge the game on those clips. Turns out those astute trailer observers were right.

It is what it is though, just sucks that I could have saved my money.

[EccentricMeat]

Quote: Originally Posted by Lagoa

EccentricMeat, I really appreciate all of your attempt and detailed explanation of how to try to fix the pick n roll problem in the game. After using your sliders and your roster changes, the game improves, but honestly, very little ... the problem still exists and appears all the time. And particularly, after making the modifications, the players move very unreally, everyone is exaggeratedly slow, with slow movements .... anyway, thank you, but for me it didn't solve the problem. The game is still broken for me, because now, I can master pick n roll with almost any player.

Yea, the gameplay has slowed down a bit with the recent tuner/update so some changes will need to be made with my movement sliders. But those are just secondary to actually fixing the defensive AI.

Do you have a video I could see of the PnR defense being too weak even with my tweaks?