AI's defense issue on NEXT GEN vs. CURRENT GEN

[rudyjuly2]

Quote: Originally Posted by ksuttonjr76

That's kinda where I'm getting at....there's a fine line between "It's part of the offense, and you're just going with the flow" versus "I'm hitting the LB at the top on every possession". Personally, I rarely call a screen, and I only take them when ACE gives me a play that has one. Beyond that, I'm not thinking to score on every possession on some type of a drive/kick out or dunk if the lane opened wide enough. When I read this complaint, I cringe, because I think the resolution would be (I think you mentioned it before) to make it where the ball handler is stone walled somehow which would lead to the "I can't score when I use the pick and roll" argument. Honestly, I don't think the defense is that bad. It works for the most part. I just upset that I can make a good contest, rotation, or closeout, but the defensive player that I'm controlling stops just short of the block attempt or the shot goes despite being "Smothered". To me, AI offensive players can be stop at times too.

The solution isn’t to stone wall the ball handler at all imo. I think screens are too effective so the on ball defender gets wiped out too easily. I would tweak that. IF the hedge defender cuts off the ball he has to be smarter. If they drop then protect the basket and dare the jumper (instead of standing still like an idiot). They do neither well. Lastly my biggest beef is the lack of rotations. This game treats the PNR like a 2v2 action and none of the other defenders engage. If the screener rolls to the basket someone else has to rotate and help (high or low someone has to come, they can’t just watch). That’s really the biggest flaw - there is no help. So it’s too easy to meet an uncontested bucket.

If 2K had better rotation it would also open up the drive and kick game which is severely limited right now since there is no help on penetration. Why kick when they give you an easy bucket AND nobody on the perimeter is open?

This is such a fundamental aspect of the NBA. Pick and roll and penetrate and kick when the defence has to help. It is virtually non existent in this game.

[Dione2014]

Quote: Originally Posted by rudyjuly2

The solution isn’t to stone wall the ball handler at all imo. I think screens are too effective so the on ball defender gets wiped out too easily. I would tweak that. IF the hedge defender cuts off the ball he has to be smarter. If they drop then protect the basket and dare the jumper (instead of standing still like an idiot). They do neither well. Lastly my biggest beef is the lack of rotations. This game treats the PNR like a 2v2 action and none of the other defenders engage. If the screener rolls to the basket someone else has to rotate and help (high or low someone has to come, they can’t just watch). That’s really the biggest flaw - there is no help. So it’s too easy to meet an uncontested bucket. If 2K had better rotation it would also open up the drive and kick game which is severely limited right now since there is no help on penetration. Why kick when they give you an easy bucket AND nobody on the perimeter is open? This is such a fundamental aspect of the NBA. Pick and roll and penetrate and kick when the defence has to help. It is virtually non existent in this game.

That's actually the real issue with the PnR that nobody really mentions. The screens really are too damn effective. Very often the on ball defender will be clearly on his way and almost over a screen, only to be pulled back into an animation that forces the defender to go under the screen.

That's an extreme example but even when a defender lightly grazes a screen it's often an over exaggerated animation that slows the defender down way too much. Sometimes it's comical how far out of a play you can be just by barely hitting a screen.

The Czar says that these are all independent systems working in the same place but not together. This would explain why the PnR feels independent to the rest of the defenders/defense on the floor. I don't know how they're gonna fix this, but something needs to be done. Defense is team orientated. Everyone is plugged in. 2K needs to find a way to simulate this part of the game.

Sent from my SM-N986U1 using Operation Sports mobile app

[ksuttonjr76]

Quote: Originally Posted by rudyjuly2

The solution isn’t to stone wall the ball handler at all imo. I think screens are too effective so the on ball defender gets wiped out too easily. I would tweak that. IF the hedge defender cuts off the ball he has to be smarter. If they drop then protect the basket and dare the jumper (instead of standing still like an idiot). They do neither well. Lastly my biggest beef is the lack of rotations. This game treats the PNR like a 2v2 action and none of the other defenders engage. If the screener rolls to the basket someone else has to rotate and help (high or low someone has to come, they can’t just watch). That’s really the biggest flaw - there is no help. So it’s too easy to meet an uncontested bucket. If 2K had better rotation it would also open up the drive and kick game which is severely limited right now since there is no help on penetration. Why kick when they give you an easy bucket AND nobody on the perimeter is open? This is such a fundamental aspect of the NBA. Pick and roll and penetrate and kick when the defence has to help. It is virtually non existent in this game.

Are you playing against the AI or an actual opponent? Some of this stuff just sounds like the AI making good/bad decisions that the user disagrees with. How can you be upset that no help comes, but upset that you can't set the offense up for possibly an open 3 due to the defense not collapsing? In my eyes, I rather give up the layup and than have a bad rotation that leads to an open 3PT shot. Especially considering how easy it is to make 3PTers these days.

Also, you have to take in consideration that some players are just flat-out stupid on defense (based on ratings and tendencies), but we're judging them based on our "God like" view. However, I know that Da Czar said that he was going to try to tighten those situations where the AI is in a "limbo" spot on the floor and is "incapable" of making a decision good or bad.

This my opinion, but I think the defense is fine, and that they need to focus more shot contesting and removing certain animations where the defender stops short of the block attempt. When I play the game, I use my timeouts to make adjustments on defense while using the OTF menu to make large scale defensive adjustments. From there, I use icon switching, so I'm able to easily make rotations if necessary.

[rudyjuly2]

Quote: Originally Posted by ksuttonjr76

Are you playing against the AI or an actual opponent? Some of this stuff just sounds like the AI making good/bad decisions that the user disagrees with. How can you be upset that no help comes, but upset that you can't set the offense up for possibly an open 3 due to the defense not collapsing? In my eyes, I rather give up the layup and than have a bad rotation that leads to an open 3PT shot. Especially considering how easy it is to make 3PTers these days. Also, you have to take in consideration that some players are just flat-out stupid on defense (based on ratings and tendencies), but we're judging them based on our "God like" view. However, I know that Da Czar said that he was going to try to tighten those situations where the AI is in a "limbo" spot on the floor and is "incapable" of making a decision good or bad. This my opinion, but I think the defense is fine, and that they need to focus more shot contesting and removing certain animations where the defender stops short of the block attempt. When I play the game, I use my timeouts to make adjustments on defense while using the OTF menu to make large scale defensive adjustments. From there, I use icon switching, so I'm able to easily make rotations if necessary.

I play vs the AI. All I will say is I completely disagree with you on how good, or in my opinion, bad the defence is in this game. And it’s never a good idea to give up a layup which is a guaranteed 2 points vs an open 3 attempt. Open 3s are still hit at around 40%.

I’ve said my piece. Not going to argue in circles over it or rehash it any more.

[ksuttonjr76]

Quote: Originally Posted by rudyjuly2

I play vs the AI. All I will say is I completely disagree with you on how good, or in my opinion, bad the defence is in this game. And it’s never a good idea to give up a layup which is a guaranteed 2 points vs an open 3 attempt. Open 3s are still hit at around 40%. I’ve said my piece. Not going to argue in circles over it or rehash it any more.

Probably 40% offline with sliders. Online...I had a game this weekend in PNO where my opponent shot two greens with Ayton from the Suns. My defenders collapsing on every dribble drive is the last thing I want to happen.

[jfsolo]

That is the thing about discussing sports games when one person is talking about online and the other is talking about offline, it basically is now a permanent exercise in futility.

When User agency is rewarded online in such a way as to make players not want their AI teammates to apply rational, fundamentally sound principles of the sport then what accord can be reached.

They have to get the AI to be actually capable of playing logically in all aspects of the game first IMO, and then they can modify it online to allow for the bastardization of the game that online play is.

[Real2KInsider]

Quick team stat summary

P&R Ball Handler (14-22%)
https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/ball...POSS_PCT&dir=1

P&R Roll Man (4-9%)
https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/roll...POSS_PCT&dir=1


Pick & Rolls make up about 20-30% of NBA possessions. Yet this figure is deceptive because not all possessions are half-court possessions.

Transition (11-21%)
https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/tran...POSS_PCT&dir=1

Putbacks (4-7%)
https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/putb...POSS_PCT&dir=1

Misc (4-7%)
https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/playtype-misc/

Anywhere from 20-35% of possessions are "non-halfcourt". Removing these from the equation, Pick & Rolls make up about 33-50% of half-court possessions.

This is also only factoring how possessions end. There are plenty of picks being called on plays that end in a spot-up or other result. So really, it's probably pretty close to 80% of half-court possessions.

[m29a]

Quote: Originally Posted by The 24th Letter

Goes without saying, the pick and roll defense is a major issue. No argument there. I just don't want this game reverting back to bumper cars around the court, with every defender hugging their man on the perimeter as a reaction. This has really dragged down the game for me the last couple for years Finally, this game feels moreso like the modern NBA. Where space is a priority...and the CPU is more aggressive taking advantage of that space. Turnovers actually happen because you can trigger the same interactions the CPU triggers against you. They aren't intangible for the sake of difficulty. I've always said, I rather the CPU be fair than artificially difficult. I rather adjust the CPU to make certain elements more challenging. Again, thats not to say pick and roll defense isn't in a rough place, just like Czar has expressed. I just feel like the last couple for years, we put all these innovative elements into defense before getting the basics right. I'm OK with trusting the process for now until we can achieve a balance. Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk

Completely agree with this. After playing a lot of next gen 2k21, I went back and played current gen 2K21 and the space difference alone is pretty big which makes it feel closer to the real games I watch.

Playing current gen, I was like "oh right, every defender plays super close and reacts immediately to bump often" which results in less drive n kick opportunities.

I may be wrong but I recall DaCzar saying that the team wants to see more 3s to align with the modern NBA and I think that the next gen method is the way to go for that. Initially play moderate (or even sag) pressure, and when the offense actually starts to hit shots, then play closer (which also gives up more drives), then it opens up the drive game like how basketball is played.

It's all a give and take and the old 2K games made people believe that always playing up close tight pressure and being able to take away almost everything was realistic when it simply isn't. You could argue it was there for balance reasons in terms of online play. But for those looking for a more sim experience and to play like how real games are played, next gen 2K is closer to that than current gen is even with the flaws.

I really hope DaCzar holds his ground and stays on track with what the believes will work long term instead of going back to how 2K defense used to be played. Obviously next gen 2K has issues defensively especially with pick n roll and I'm not disputing that, but it has made improvements in other areas if we are talking about getting it to play closer to the real games.