NBA 2K21 Roster Update Available Today - Full Details Here (2-18)

[Shaffty]

Quote: Originally Posted by Guard-ian

I am sorry but I will never agree with those who base their analysis in stats and advanced stats, I can respect it, but to me Baskelball is much more than that and there are still way too many things impossible to register or measure in a "number"... I am not a boxscore addict, I love basketball as a game. And by the way It's way easier to produce better numbers in a bad team than doing it in a team that is winning and playing more coral... Lavine is not a better player than Mitchell or Booker... and I am not necessarily questioning Zach's 88, that could be well deserved... I am questioning the 87 of Donovan or Devin... to me those guys are already elite and should be 90's already (if we are going to put a number in the level of a player)... And now their teams are competing well in the way harder Western Conference... that should count either... but no, 2k only pay attention to individual stats it seems and again, they will never tell you the whole story. What about Jerami Grant? How can be now down to 83 with the season he is playing? It makes no sense... Whiteside 81+ just becuase he performed well in a couple of games lately when his season was been atrocious so far... however the NBA player of the week keep the same... no consistency... even no objectivity from my perspective... Cheers! ;-)

What I usually don´t get with this statements "player xyz has only xx overall, he should be yy".. Why in the name of god you compare those overall numbers? they don´t mean anything in this videogame, more precisely it´s not determined how well a player plays regarding to his overall. The individual ratings are debateable, if you have a certain scale which you base them on (e.g. 35% shooting from deep means 75 3p rating in game), you can debate then any mistakes 2k may made.
But overalls are just super misleading. It would be more helpful to put them into tiers or levels, and then I think people could debate if Lavine is in the same tier as Mitchell or above/below.

[Find_the_Door]

Quote: Originally Posted by Real2KInsider

He has Gold Clutch Shooter. That is hardly "disrespect". The players w/ HOF Clutch Shooter are all Classics: Jerry West, Michael Jordan (only one version), Larry Bird, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Robert Horry. Lillard has only cracked 40 points 3x this year (by comparison, he averaged 38 in the bubble). I'm not sure what from his statistical profile suggests he needs a higher rating. Dame's biggest drawback is that he doesn't impact the game defensively in a meaningful way. This isn't unique to Point Guards (a very small handful ever have an elite level impact), but it does hard-cap most of their OVR ratings as a result. The Blazers are 29th defensively, following up the 28th they ranked last season. That inevitably reflects in Dame's ratings.

There are numerous players with Gold clutch shooter that aren't as clutch statistically as Lillard is in measurable stats. As far as not impacting the game defensively he does on occasion intercepting passes or stripping someone (they have him fairly rated there.)

Blazers defense lately has improved - I don't care what your box score watching says hustle, physicality/aggressiveness cannot be statistically measured.

To circle back - Lillard's "disrespected" by way of having numerous other individuals in the game on the same clutch plateau. Either lower them a notch or bump him a badge.

[Real2KInsider]

Quote: Originally Posted by Find_the_Door

There are numerous players with Gold clutch shooter that aren't as clutch statistically as Lillard is in measurable stats. As far as not impacting the game defensively he does on occasion intercepting passes or stripping someone (they have him fairly rated there.)

I would be interested in the source, as I recently read Lillard is shooting like 80 TS% or something in "Clutch time". 2K gave Ice In Veins (Clutch Shooter for FTs) to a bunch of randoms (mostly bad FT shooters) and I've been unable to find a source.

FWIW, I don't evaluate badges on a single-season basis (and neither does 2K, in most cases). They also mainly reserve HOF badges for Classic players rather than current players.

In any event, Lillard has the same tier as Kobe and 5 different versions of MJ so I think the word "disrespectful" is a bit strong. You can make an argument for it, but you could just as easily flip a coin.

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Blazers defense lately has improved - I don't care what your box score watching says hustle, physicality/aggressiveness cannot be statistically measured.

This is a bit of an ironic take since you just referenced a specific niche stat. It would seem like you only wish to use stats when it suits your argument.

The Blazers give up 115.9 points per 100 possessions (only the Kings are worse at a historically ghastly 118.9). It can in fact be statistically measured. Hustle and effort do not equate to effectiveness. The team literally starts Enes Kanter and plays Carmelo Anthony big minutes.

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To circle back - Lillard's "disrespected" by way of having numerous other individuals in the game on the same clutch plateau. Either lower them a notch or bump him a badge.

There's probably a better argument for decreases. I'm not intimately familiar w/ who has the Clutch badge (not in front of the game), so perhaps you could inform us who you think should go down?

[Guard-ian]

Quote: Originally Posted by Real2KInsider

That's well and good, but a number of the attributes are tied to statistical formulas. Ditto for most of the badges. Editing 500 players without statistics is impossible.

And there it is the mistake... you can not use just stats to determine the level of competency in something as abstract and rich as a game like basketball... The only real important number at the end of the day is the final score and the W/L balance. A player with 10-5-5 could have been better an played better than another one with 20-10-10 (Westbrick anyone? LOL...)

Even as symple as a 3 point rating could be... you cannot just look to 3pts % numbers, because the number of situations for shooting a 3 and the range of difficulty of those shots is immense... you cannot compare the shots of Luka Doncic with the shots of Lou Dort.

And regarding editing 500 players... Football Manager has a database of many more players, created by a group of experts who actually watch and understand the sport and who don't base their ratings mainly on numbers...

That's what I ask for... a group of experts who actually watch NBA basketball putting those ratings and badges based on their feeling and knowledge of the game. I can trust the subjectivity of that model much more than the objectivty of stats... The ball don't lie... stats do it.

(If you have to put an overal rating to players...) How can Reggie Bullock still be a 71? Even Julius Randle only an 86 with the kind of season he is playing? It is unacceptable in my book.

And one last thing I don't like of these ratings updates... specially for NBA veterans, ratings should not fluctuate that much, you should trust the background of a player much more than the last 2 or 3 games... Porzingis cannot go from 83 3pts to 75 only to go back to 81 in 3pts two weeks later... It's ridiculous for a veteran that you know (because of his full career performance) is a good 3 point menace.

[jk31]

Quote: Originally Posted by Real2KInsider

There's probably a better argument for decreases. I'm not intimately familiar w/ who has the Clutch badge (not in front of the game), so perhaps you could inform us who you think should go down?

Without stating anything about if the badges are deserved, but here is the list of players who has gold clutch shooter right now:

Jimmy	Butler
Stephen	Curry
Luka	Doncic
Kevin	Durant
James	Harden
Kyrie	Irving
LeBron	James
Nikola	Jokic
Kawhi	Leonard
Damian	Lillard
C.J.	McCollum
D'Angelo	Russell
Klay	Thompson
Kemba	Walker
Trae	Young

[Real2KInsider]

Quote: Originally Posted by Guard-ian

And there it is the mistake... you can not use just stats to determine the level of competency in something as abstract and rich as a game like basketball...

And yet, professional basketball teams do this.

Stats are a tool. Understanding data helps us make better decisions.

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The only real important number at the end of the day is the final score and the W/L balance. A player with 10-5-5 could have been better an played better than another one with 20-10-10 (Westbrick anyone? LOL...) Even as symple as a 3 point rating could be... you cannot just look to 3pts % numbers, because the number of situations for shooting a 3 and the range of difficulty of those shots is immense... you cannot compare the shots of Luka Doncic with the shots of Lou Dort.

Correct. There are also numerous other stats to account for when evaluating a rating. Things like contested shots, assisted shots, usage rates, Spot Up data, these things are all measured nowadays. This isn't 1982. We have access to a ton more information, not to mention the obvious context that Luka and Dort have wildly different roles.

(Badges tell us the difference between Lu Dort and Luka Doncic, btw. Two players can have the same rating and generate vastly different results. This isn't 2K3 where we only have the shot attribute and that's it. We have 17 shooting badges that encapsulate everything that USED to be covered by a single attribute).

Anyone that thinks they can create a roster w/o using stats - don't tell me, show me.

40 Attributes, 73 Badges, 80 Tendencies, 500 Players. Go for it.

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And regarding editing 500 players... Football Manager has a database of many more players, created by a group of experts who actually watch and understand the sport and who don't base their ratings mainly on numbers...

Football of course is a perfect analogue to Basketball, given the extensive variety of roles a player experiences during their career. Wait, what's that? Quarterbacks don't play defense or kick field goals? The guy who kicks the ball never has to run down field? Crazy.

I don't profess to know anything about Football attributes but I kinda doubt each player/position has more than 10 relevant to their performance. The Kicker doesn't have a Hands rating.

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That's what I ask for... a group of experts who actually watch NBA basketball putting those ratings and badges based on their feeling and knowledge of the game. I can trust the subjectivity of that model much more than the objectivty of stats... The ball don't lie... stats do it.

I hate to break it to you but experts lie. Frequently. Charles Barkley just said on live TV he'd take Jordan Clarkson > Anthony Davis for All-Star. You want subjective opinions to trump objective information? That's the definition of bias and you would of course be pissy about it (as would everyone - absolutely nothing would change w/ this model).

At the end of the day the rosters ARE someone's opinion, they just weight certain attributes objectively. Why someone should work blindfolded, I have no idea. Go get Isiah Thomas and Charles Barkley to run the 2K roster if you think "experts" that can't math are the right people to numerically assess skill.

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And one last thing I don't like of these ratings updates... specially for NBA veterans, ratings should not fluctuate that much, you should trust the background of a player much more than the last 2 or 3 games...

I agree that 2K fluctuates shot ratings more than they should. They tanked Zach LaVine's 3pt rating in the first update, which looks absolutely foolish in retrospect.

They do factor past performance, but their practice is made ineffective by placing too much emphasis on the current year. This isn't because stats are bad - the people applying them are too inexperienced to understand the proper sample.

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Porzingis cannot go from 83 3pts to 75 only to go back to 81 in 3pts two weeks later... It's ridiculous for a veteran that you know (because of his full career performance) is a good 3 point menace.

Porzingis started off the year 16-56 (28.5%). I would not have dropped him, because I'd have anticipated him going back up again (which he did).

Porzingis' rating is right where it should be at 81 (how do we know that? Because Math).

He's shooting 35% this year, shot 35% last year, and is 36% for his career. By formula, he's an 81. How you propose programing shooting percentages in a video game without math is I guess what you're going to need to explain

[Real2KInsider]

Quote: Originally Posted by jk31

Without stating anything about if the badges are deserved, but here is the list of players who has gold clutch shooter right now: Jimmy Butler Stephen Curry Luka Doncic Kevin Durant James Harden Kyrie Irving LeBron James Nikola Jokic Kawhi Leonard Damian Lillard C.J. McCollum D'Angelo Russell Klay Thompson Kemba Walker Trae Young

The disrespect! Lol. Beyond maybe D'Angelo Russell all these guys are fine.

[Real2KInsider]

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