Why only "Help and no rotation"?

[Guard-ian]

I mean,

Shouldn't we have an option for "Help and rotation"? Wouldn't this be the more realistic one considering current NBA defense schemas?

With help and no rotation you can get some guy(s) leaving his man to close in the paint, but usually that concedes an uncontested shot where you are totally sold... becasue I don't see any kind of rotation off ball and on the weak side...

It's curious cos when you call for a double team, in some cases, the game creates some kind of beautiful and realistic off ball repositioning and rotations (not in all cases though), but with Help we are totally in the dust...

What do you think? I think 2k devs should work a lot on defense strategy for next-gen games as they have a long way to go there with AI and options beeing so basic...

Cheers!

[Crossover1]

Re: Why only "Help and no rotation"?

I believe that's what the auto/default setting is but the name suggests it is based off the team's schemes. It seems as though help defense, and defense in general are extremely difficult to program. Soon as a third defender is involved, it almost always breaks down even with elite defensive teams.

So the way 2K tries to get around this is by making on-ball defense unrealistic and paint scoring a lot weaker than irl. Contested shots go in at a much lower rate than irl too, at least to my eye test. When a defender is nearby, it seems to plummet the offensive player's percentage, especially when it's a defender with a plethora of badges.

[tb0622]

Re: Why only "Help and no rotation"?

I think it's simply a matter of programming. 2k developers haven't figured out how to do help the helper defense. They can get the one rotation in, but then the coding for second and third order defensive rotations is just too hard for them. Hopefully someday they'll figure it out.

[jk31]

Re: Why only "Help and no rotation"?

i tested the help settings together with a friend with players that i gave all 99 on every important defensive rating and with artificially created Situations:

no help = no help, regardless of Off Ball defense setting

help and no rotation = only the first help

Auto = you mostly get the first help and sometimes even get help AND rotation. i am Not Sure if Auto = help and rotation or Auto truly = Auto, meaning we get randomly selected between no help, help and no rotation and help and rotation.

Note that There will be no help if a Player is Set to deny in the offball setting. but regardless if leave him, gap, moderate or tight, the help will come.


so please forget this "help and no rotation" bull**** that for what ever reason holds itself as the "best" Option as stated by different people for years. i tested this thoroughly myself and in my opinion Auto, while Not perfect, is the best setting.
and dont forget that especially in 2k21, defensive AI is as Bad as it has ever been. with players below 90 ratings on defense, you will See many many mistakes, which is ridiculous. Was much better in recent years.

[Guard-ian]

Re: Why only "Help and no rotation"?

So Auto is better than help and no rotation and could work from time to time as a kind of help and rotation... hum, that's interesting, I will give it a try... ;-)

Definitely defense is so inconsistent in this game and frustrating many times... It's something where the devs should put some focus with the extra power of the next gen even though they probably won't do it as that won't help them to sell more copies...

[jk31]

Re: Why only "Help and no rotation"?

So Auto is better than help and no rotation and could work from time to time as a kind of help and rotation... hum, that's interesting, I will give it a try... ;-)

Definitely defense is so inconsistent in this game and frustrating many times... It's something where the devs should put some focus with the extra power of the next gen even though they probably won't do it as that won't help them to sell more copies...

as far as i understood what da_czar said (He Took over defense this year) He wants to reduce what is possible in defense and start over with the basics until He gets them right.

[dwayne12345]

Re: Why only "Help and no rotation"?

and dont forget that especially in 2k21, defensive AI is as Bad as it has ever been. with players below 90 ratings on defense, you will See many many mistakes, which is ridiculous. Was much better in recent years.

Thanks for testing this. I've also noticed that auto leaves it in the hands of who you have on your team. I've seen the CPU pull off some scramble recovery defense against me, which was amazing to see.

I disagree on this last part. There should be mistakes on defense from most players. That's how great offensive players destroy teams that don't have 5 strong defenders. It's not sim if Kuzma isn't always in the wrong place at the wrong time on defense.

My gripe has long been there isn't enough AI mistakes on the offensive side of the ball. The CPU just doesn't throw the ball away enough on the default sliders (you can lower passing but this makes simple passes out of control too).

[jk31]

Re: Why only "Help and no rotation"?

Thanks for testing this. I've also noticed that auto leaves it in the hands of who you have on your team. I've seen the CPU pull off some scramble recovery defense against me, which was amazing to see.

I disagree on this last part. There should be mistakes on defense from most players. That's how great offensive players destroy teams that don't have 5 strong defenders. It's not sim if Kuzma isn't always in the wrong place at the wrong time on defense.

My gripe has long been there isn't enough AI mistakes on the offensive side of the ball. The CPU just doesn't throw the ball away enough on the default sliders (you can lower passing but this makes simple passes out of control too).

yes There should of course be mistakes. but i am sorry, i am playing in the third lowest Division in germany and we Play better help defense than 2k.

how many players with 90+ on All defensive ratings exist in the game? Not that many. In our online League i run a starting lineup of paul-oladipo-ariza-siakam-turner. one would think this is one of the best defensive lineups you can get, right? no, they are too Bad to Play help defense consistently. that people with, dunno....

and especially as without even the first help rotation it completely ****s up how the game is played. you nearly cannot get open 3pt shots as you can walk into the paint Most of the Times. In real life, many offendes are build around penetrate and kick, which result in open 3s or open driving Lands sooner or later. you dont have that dynamic in 2k right now.

[lemarflacco]

Re: Why only "Help and no rotation"?

yes There should of course be mistakes. but i am sorry, i am playing in the third lowest Division in germany and we Play better help defense than 2k.

how many players with 90+ on All defensive ratings exist in the game? Not that many. In our online League i run a starting lineup of paul-oladipo-ariza-siakam-turner. one would think this is one of the best defensive lineups you can get, right? no, they are too Bad to Play help defense consistently. that people with, dunno....

and especially as without even the first help rotation it completely ****s up how the game is played. you nearly cannot get open 3pt shots as you can walk into the paint Most of the Times. In real life, many offendes are build around penetrate and kick, which result in open 3s or open driving Lands sooner or later. you dont have that dynamic in 2k right now.

Czar always says essentially if your going to play on 2k/ broadcast cam where you are above the court and can see everything single player and defender at the same time, its hard to have the defense play realistically. Maybe a lot of the solution is to not allow passes to make it crosscourt so that you can't just zoom it to the open man at any time

[rudyjuly2]

Re: Why only "Help and no rotation"?

Czar always says essentially if your going to play on 2k/ broadcast cam where you are above the court and can see everything single player and defender at the same time, its hard to have the defense play realistically. Maybe a lot of the solution is to not allow passes to make it crosscourt so that you can't just zoom it to the open man at any time

That’s a cop out imo. Defense has been horrible next gen. When it first released the off ball defender in a PNR would do almost nothing. Wouldn’t hedge, drop or even defend his own man. You could run PNR and have two easy options. Last gen was much better in this area.

The real NBA has a ton of players rotating on drives. You will see kick outs and “one more” passes all the time. This game doesn’t have that. Not even close.

They built a new engine that was supposed to be better and was worse in this area than anything over the last 3 years. And then they didn’t patch it. Defensive settings barely did anything and they washed their hands of it and said “Whoops! Maybe next year!” Sorry. I’m not an automatic purchase next year due to this garbage. I’ve put the least amount of hours in this game in 4 years. They have lost my trust.

[jk31]

Re: Why only "Help and no rotation"?

Czar always says essentially if your going to play on 2k/ broadcast cam where you are above the court and can see everything single player and defender at the same time, its hard to have the defense play realistically. Maybe a lot of the solution is to not allow passes to make it crosscourt so that you can't just zoom it to the open man at any time

i am talking about the defensive end. Just because i See everything doesnt make defense better/worse. okay, it makes me See more often how Bad my AI teammates move.

[Baebae32]

Re: Why only "Help and no rotation"?

That’s a cop out imo. Defense has been horrible next gen. When it first released the off ball defender in a PNR would do almost nothing. Wouldn’t hedge, drop or even defend his own man. You could run PNR and have two easy options. Last gen was much better in this area.

The real NBA has a ton of players rotating on drives. You will see kick outs and “one more” passes all the time. This game doesn’t have that. Not even close.

They built a new engine that was supposed to be better and was worse in this area than anything over the last 3 years. And then they didn’t patch it. Defensive settings barely did anything and they washed their hands of it and said “Whoops! Maybe next year!” Sorry. I’m not an automatic purchase next year due to this garbage. I’ve put the least amount of hours in this game in 4 years. They have lost my trust.

Kind of off topic but i remember when some of us posed questions about off ball defense based on what was shown in the pre-release clips and other said we were overreacting. Based off that im not suprised at all how bad the offense defense was this iteration. The logic still has a long way to go and at least it cant any worse from here i suppose lol

[The 24th Letter]

Re: Why only "Help and no rotation"?

Czar always says essentially if your going to play on 2k/ broadcast cam where you are above the court and can see everything single player and defender at the same time, its hard to have the defense play realistically. Maybe a lot of the solution is to not allow passes to make it crosscourt so that you can't just zoom it to the open man at any time

I mean, it's 100% true. I know folks are upset and don't want to hear anything beyond that their personal issues are fixed (and I get the frustration), but when talking about building a defensive philosophy- it's pretty easy to understand. Anyone that's been in the film room and watched PG tape knows his pick and roll navigation and identifying his blind spots are the first two factors you identify. There are none when you have that "godsview" of things.

Czar didn't say this as an excuse as to why the pick and roll defense wasn't fixed this year along with other issues. He was stating a simple fact- it's a tough balance.

If anything, 2K used to be really help heavy. The problem was many complained about the openings in the corners. The last two editions had a lot of glue on the perimeter to fix this which I was never a fan of. I've heard people talk about the drive and kick being non existent this year and I'm over here like, thjs is the first I've seen of it in years, lol. Different playing styles I guess. I don't touch many other settings either so that could be it.

Either way, I hope they can figure out some kind of balance for next year. Defense was definitely rough this year...and that's putting it lightly.

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk

[dwayne12345]

Re: Why only "Help and no rotation"?

yes There should of course be mistakes. but i am sorry, i am playing in the third lowest Division in germany and we Play better help defense than 2k.

how many players with 90+ on All defensive ratings exist in the game? Not that many. In our online League i run a starting lineup of paul-oladipo-ariza-siakam-turner. one would think this is one of the best defensive lineups you can get, right? no, they are too Bad to Play help defense consistently. that people with, dunno....

and especially as without even the first help rotation it completely ****s up how the game is played. you nearly cannot get open 3pt shots as you can walk into the paint Most of the Times. In real life, many offendes are build around penetrate and kick, which result in open 3s or open driving Lands sooner or later. you dont have that dynamic in 2k right now.

This isn't a good comp. If you take the worst defender in the NBA and put him in your division he'll look like Tony Allen. People who are poor defenders in the NBA aren't incapable of d'ing up - they're just outsmarted, tricked and outmatched.


You think anyone in your league can guard a Luca or James Harden without fouling on the closeout constantly?


You think people in your league wouldn't constantly get caught out of position by overhelping when they shouldn't because they're caught ball watching Kyrie dancing on a teammate?


Take that into account. The game moves much faster at the NBA level and that's why the seemingly simple mistakes happen.

[jk31]

Re: Why only "Help and no rotation"?

This isn't a good comp. If you take the worst defender in the NBA and put him in your division he'll look like Tony Allen. People who are poor defenders in the NBA aren't incapable of d'ing up - they're just outsmarted, tricked and outmatched.


You think anyone in your league can guard a Luca or James Harden without fouling on the closeout constantly?


You think people in your league wouldn't constantly get caught out of position by overhelping when they shouldn't because they're caught ball watching Kyrie dancing on a teammate?


Take that into account. The game moves much faster at the NBA level and that's why the seemingly simple mistakes happen.

you are of course right, but on the other Hand There are no amateur players on the nba court. So the relative Level compared to us is the same.

we have both Bad and Good Team defenders in our Team, yet we are able to Play relative, der Good help side d rotation.
an nba Team also consists of both Bad and Good team defenders, yet Most of them are unable to Play help D consistently.

and if you Look the lineup i showed All 5 players are Good defenders.