If anyone wants to tack on my physical and onball ratings lemme know.

[Kaanyr Vhok]

http://www.2ksports.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233899

I posted this thread on the Insider boards about how I'm sick of physical ratings being based on position instead of athleticism.

When Dwight Howard is slower than all of the athletic bigs in the combine you know there is a problem.

I know a lot of people are working on rosters to fix the asinine ratings and to provide a more consistent formula for shooting ratings. So I have focused on something thats flawed but also difficult to formulate.

I'm tackling an update to provide physical ratings that are really based on something and to update the onball defense because thats where a lot of players are poorly scouted.

So far I'm using the combine test scores as some basis for physical ratings.

With vert its an almost absolute basis (more below on vert). With speed its about a 20% basis I also factor rep, star power, age at the combine, current age, position, and injury. With players that didnt run at the combine I scout their athleticism and compare them to other players who already have scores. So far these are the speed ratings

Robinson 2.96/ 98
Weems 2.96/ 97
Alexander 2.99/ 96
Will Bynum 3/ 96
Eric Gordon 3.01/ 96
Derrick Rose 3.05/ 96
Tony Douglas 3.03/ 95
Raymond Felton 3.06/ 94
Dwayne Wade 3.08/ 93
Russell Westbrook 3.08/ 92
Patrick Mills 3.10/ 92
Speedy Claxton 3.05 91
Rodney Carney 3.06 91
Joey Graham 3.05/ 91
DJ Augustin 3.07/ 91
George Hill 3.07/ 91
Jerryd Bayless 3.07/ 91
Mike Conley 3.09/ 91
Darren Collision 3.10/91
Ty Lawson 3.11/ 90
Jodie Meeks 3.10/ 89
David Noel 3.07/ 89………………….LeBron James 90
Jamario Moon 3.08/ 88……………….Tony Parker 89
Rashard McCants 3.11/ 88
Rodney Stuckey 3.11/ 88
Dahntay Jones 3.11/ 88
OJ Mayo 3.14/ 88
Monta Ellis 3.31/ 88
Jameer Nelson 3.14/ 88
Rodriguen Beaubois 3.15/ 87
Carmello Anthony 3.15/ 87
Devin Harris 3.19/87
TJ Ford 3.20/ 86………………………Allen Iverson 86
Ben Gordon 3.19/ 85
Delonte West 3.15/ 85
James Harden 3.13/ 85
Derrick Brown 3.11/ 85
Gerald Henderson 3.14/ 85
Tyreke Evans 3.17/ 85
Jordan Farmar 3.17/ 85
Jeff Teague 3.17/85
Eric Maynor 3.17/85
Andre Iguodala 3.18/85…………Vince Carter 84
Aaron Brooks 3.20/85
JR Smith 3.21/ 85…………………Kobe Bryant 85
Josh Howard 3.09/ 84
DJ Strawberry 3.14/ 84
Chris Duhon 3.14/ 84
Lester Hudson 3.16/ 84
CJ Watson 3.15/ 84
Al Thornton 3.16/ 84
Darrell Arthur 3.14/ 83
Chris Paul 3.22/ 83
Earl Watson 3.19/ 83
Willie Green 3.19/ 83
Luther Head 3.21/ 83
Thaddeus Young 3.19/ 83
Dwight Howard 3.14/ 82
Ronald Murray 3.16/ 82
Terrance Williams 3.18/ 82
Jrue Holiday 3.20/ 82
Gerald Green 3.21/ 82
Jonny Flynn 3.23/ 82
Richard Jefferson 3.15/ 81
Morris Almond 3.19/ 81
Wayne Ellington 3.20/ 81
Marvin Williams 3.17/81
Acie Law 3.22/ 81
Richard Mbah a Moute 3.17/81
Deron Williams 3.25/ 81
Keith Bogans 3.22/80
Jeff Pendergraph 3.13/ 80
Jamaal Tinsley 3.20/ 80
Daequan Cook 3.22/80
Randy Foye 3.23/79
Brandon Roy 3.27/ 79
Josh Smith 3.24/ 79
Shaun Livingston 3.23/79
Jarrett Jack 3.24/79
Tyrus Thomas 3.20/ 79
Chris Wilcox 3.15/ 79
Donte Green 3.20/ 79
Corey Brewer 3.22/ 79
Bobby Brown 3.25/ 79
Chase Budinger 3.24/ 78
Ryan Gomes 3.24/ 78
Gilbert Arenas 3.25/78
Ramon Session 3.27/ 77
Travis Diener 3.26/77
Smush Parker 3.26/77
Brandon Bass 3.24/ 77
Luke Jackson 3.24/ 77
Emeka Okafor 3.15/ 77
David Lee 3.19/ 77
Marquis Daniels 3.25/ 77
Chris Quinn 3.25/ 77
Mardy Collins 3.27/ 77
Joey Dorsey 3.20/76
Eddie House 3.27/ 76
Nick Young 3.25/ 76
Drew Gooden 3.19/ 76
Josh Powell 3.20/ 76
Nene 3.19/ 76
Hakim Warrick 3.22/76
Reynaldo Balkman 3.22/76
Michael Beasley 3.24/ 76
Amare Stoudemire 3.25/ 76
Demar Derozan 3.31/76
Kevin Love 3.22/ 75
Caron Butler 3.33/ 75
John Salmons 3.25/ 75
Kris Humphrey 3.20/ 75
Stephen Curry 3.28/75
Luke Ridnour 3.28/75
Michael Redd 3.34/ 75
Rudy Gay 3.32/75
Ronny Turiaf 3.23/ 74
JJ Redick 3.29/ 74
Jarvis Crittenton 3.32/ 74
Jermaine Taylor 3.32/ 74
Rudy Fernandez 3.33/ 74
Danny Granger 3.34/ 74
Anthony Randolph 3.26/ 73
Dante Cunningham 3.26/ 73
Shane Battier 3.3/ 73……………………..Andre Miller 73
Brandon Rush 3.31/ 73
Javale McGee 3.25/ 73
Danny Green 3.3/ 73
Martell Webster 3.39/ 73
Rasual Butler 3.29/73
Mike Dunleavy 3.3/73
Chris Bosh 3.3/73
Al Jefferson 3.29 /73
Joe Johnson 3.4/ 73
Tyler Hansbrough 3.27/ 72
Carlos Boozer 3.31/72
Richard Hendrix 3.27/ 71
Coby Karl 3.32 71
Jason Heart 3.34/ 70
Blake Griffin 3.28/ 70
Deandre Jordan 3.27/ 70
Paul Millsap 3.3/70
Greg Oden 3.27/69
Tyson Chandler 3.36
Karl Landry 3.29/ 69
Chris Richard 3.29/ 69
Francisco Garcia 3.33/69
Nick Collison 3.28/69
Luol Deng 3.34/ 69………………………….Travis Outlaw 70
Shawne Williams 3.3/69
Kevin Durant 3.45/ 68
Jordan Hill 3.3/ 68
Jeff Green 3.34/ 68
Charlie Villanueva 3.3/68
Brandan Wright 3.31/ 68
Marcus Williams 3.4/68
Julian Wright 3.36/ 68
Jason Kapono 3.38/ 67
Wayne Simien 3.35/ 67
Uddonis Haslem 3.31/67
LaMarcus Aldridge 3.43/ 67
Antoine Wright 3.41/66
Steve Novak 3.37/ 66
Darko Milicic 3.36/ 66
David West 3.43/ 66
Al Horford 3.37/65
Joakim Noah 3.47/65
Adam Morrison 3.37/ 65
Matt Bonner 3.32/ 65
Marcin Gortat 3.33/65
Chuck Hayes 3.34/ 65
Earl Clark 3.35/65
Bobby Simmons 3.41/65
Kwame Brown 3.45/ 64
Malik Allen 3.38/ 63
Troy Murphy 3.43/63
Sun Yue 3.45/63
Taj Gibson 3.41/ 62
Chris Kaman 3.37/ 62
Craig Smith 3.4/ 62
Jared Jeffries 3.40/ 61
Tiago Splitter 3.38/ 61
Kyle Korver 3.47/ 60
Eduardo Najara 3.45/58
Jarred Dudley 3.45/57
Austin Daye 3.55/ 55
Ike Diogu 3.45/55
David Padgett 3.45/55
Sam Young 3.45/ 55
Dejuan Blair 3.45/55
Brian Cook 3.45/55
Andrew Bogut 3.51/55
Brook Lopez 3.57/55
Josh McRoberts 3.47/54
Hilton Armstrong 3.53/54
Mark Madsen 3.46/53
Brian Scalabrine 3.47/53
BJ Mullins 3.45/53
Eddy Curry 3.53/53
Brendan Haywood 3.5/53
Darius Songalia 3.52/50
Spencer Hawes 3.51/ 49
Jason Collins 3.54/49
DeSagana Diop 3.56/ 48…………………Yao Ming 51
Primo Brezec 3.55/47
Shelden Williams 3.59/47
Jarron Collins 3.6/46
Patrick O’Bryant 3.63/39
Aaron Gray 3.7/ 32

I'm glad to hear there is a player speed slider because the players are generally too slow while the gamespeed is if anything too fast. I'm still testing that so right now.



This is my formula for vert.
Max is 44 Min is 23
+3 stars
+1-3 for rep. For example a player like Zach Randolph who doesn’t have a great vert but times his jumps well will get a 1-3 point bump.
-1 for every year above 30 though I wont take off more than 5.
-I start with the no-step vert and add half the difference of the max vert. That’s why the Max is so low. Jordan breaks the scale. It’s a good thing Kadour Ziani isn’t in the league too. No player is getting higher than a 95 or lower than a 29.
-Players that weren’t at the combine will be scouted; usually a google search will tell you all you need.



41/34 94-95
40.5/33 92-93
40/32 90-91
39.5/31 88-89
39/30 86-87
38.5/29 84-85
38/28 82-83
37.5/27 80-81
37/26 78-79
36.5/25 76-77
36/24 74-75
35.5/23 72-73
35/22 70-71
34.5/21 68-69
34/20 66-67
33.5/19 64-65
33/18 62-63
32.5/17 60-61
32/16 58-59
31.5/15 56-57
31/14 54-55
30.5/13 52-53
30/12 50-51
29.5/11 48-49
29/10 46-47
28.5/9 44-45
28/8 42-43
27.5/7 40-42
27/6 38-39
26.5/5 36-37
26/4 34-35
25.5/3 32-33
25/2 30

So far these are the only two physical formulas I have. If anyone is interested I can provide a few test teams so you can play with those speed settings. So far In my test I have found the following.

-The players are generally a tad too slow. I now know there is a player speed slider so I'm going to work with it.

-The slowest players are way too slow. Since the ratings are based on position this causes a unrealistic gap in transition defense and offense though having a trailer that can throw down doesn't always hurt. If any of you are old enough to remember Kareem's last year with the Laker's you will know what I'm talking about. Kareem trailed on every play on offense and defense. In 2k10 Nene is like a 40 year old Kareem Abdul Jabbar. That should not be. In real life Nene has the speed to, as the say in hockey 'join the rush'.

-I tested the hell out of this and I still cant say for certain but there appears to be some truth to taller players having a slight edge in speed when the ratings are within a few points. I gave both Johnny Flynn and Dwight Howard an 82 in speed. After like 10 sprints it did seem that Howard was about 8 hundreds of a second faster. Its not a big enough difference to change anything but I was more assured in making slight adjustments for position.

-After playing about 7 games with the teams I adjusted I feel as if the major difference is in transition defense and the flow of the game in general. It seems as if the recovery speed of the defense is greater too. I haven't seen any unreal foot races though it does seem like some players are too slow with the ball. Thats more of an issue with ball handling.

-Speaking of Nene I watched a Nuggets vs Blazers game last year where Nene ripped Oden and took off down the court for a dunk. Nobody could catch him. Even with an adjusted speed rating I dont think Nene could pull that off in 2k10. His ballhandling is too low so he is molasses with the ball. There might be some players that deserve a ballhandling boost as long as they dont get an offhand, or ball security boost. If one of the faster Blazers had a better angle they could have caught him and stole the ball and we dont need another 2k9 where Garnett could iso through the defense, and Jerome James handled like LeBron. Nene would have to keep the same package. So I gotta use uhhh whats the word that Visual Concepts struggles with... moderation. <!-- / message -->

[DC]

Re: If anyone wants to tack on my physical and onball ratings lemme know.

I like; saves me work. Does that first list include everyone in the game? Not to ask for too much but do you have a speed list sorted by team?

Also what about quickness ratings?

I like what I see though

[Kaanyr Vhok]

Re: If anyone wants to tack on my physical and onball ratings lemme know.

I like; saves me work. Does that first list include everyone in the game? Not to ask for too much but do you have a speed list sorted by team?

Also what about quickness ratings?

I like what I see though

Nah that list is every active player except maybe Omari Casspi or a few others I missed who ran at the combine along with a few others on the side that didn't.

I dont have a list by team. I had five teams updated until the Insider update saved over it but that didn't bother me because they were just for testing and I was going to start over with newer rosters anyway. I'm also glad to have learned how easy it is to overwrite your rosters before I have something I really care about.

With quickness Its going to be loosely based on agility drills, but rep and scouting will play more of a factor. I remember when I was a kid at Pat Riley's basketball camp and he told us that Kurt Rambis was the quickest player he ever coached. There is a certain breed of big man with really great footwork so I will look out for that, take the agility drills and come up with a formula thats consistent. I'm basically going to start with speed, and then mod it. Its has to be a strong mod because some players are very fast but stiff. The Blazers Justin Pendergaph is kinda like that while Rudy Fernandez is the opposite. Then you have players with quick feet on defense so thats why I want to include some onball updates.

I'm really waiting on some of the other major roster updates to piggy back onto those. There are a lot of people that can best the Insider's shooting, ballhandling, steals, etc ratings and the tendancies are pretty strong this year. So I'm going to do about five test teams. The Magic, Trail Blazers, and the Celts will be three of them as Howards 80+ speed seems to be the big question and the Celts have been a horribly rated team for a while. Other than that If you have any request for a team let me know.

I'll do at least five once I have those formulas. It be should done by Monday. That way people can see how the physical updates play and if anyone wants to just use the numbers I can provide the numbers or I can take their updates and save my updates onto them. Of coarse I only want to do that once so I'm on the look out for whoever has the best roster update. I'm also not in a hurry. I want to wait a little while so the Insider can add more players.

[dprodigy19]

Re: If anyone wants to tack on my physical and onball ratings lemme know.

Couple of quick things:

1. As someone who watched Collison and Westbrook for years in person (2nd row, dead center of the floor- gotta love being a UCLA student), Darren Collison is quicker than Westbrook. He may not have a higher speed rating, but his quickness rating has to be superhigh. Plus, both of his parents were sprinters.

2. It has been a hope of mine for eons that someone corrected heights to calibrate for the NBA/teams screwing with them. As an example, Joe Alexander and Michael Beasley measured out at exactly the same height without shoes but aren't listed at the same height because Beasley was drafted as a PF. Not anything critical of course, but it would be another way to kill some time until the big boys come out with their updates, and Draft Express' Measurements Database has it all there.

[keshunleon]

Re: If anyone wants to tack on my physical and onball ratings lemme know.

Beasley was 6'8" at 19 and he is 6'9" with shoes on. I sure Beasley will grow at least 1 inch in the next 2yrs.
They both should be 6'9" unless one of them grew.

[salmarino]

Re: If anyone wants to tack on my physical and onball ratings lemme know.

Beasley was 6'7 in his barefeet.

The problem with these ratings is that it doesn't tell you how fast a guy is with the ball, and it's hard to rate that.

Chris Paul isn't the fastest player in the league, but he doesn't lose any speed with a dribble.

[Kaanyr Vhok]

Re: If anyone wants to tack on my physical and onball ratings lemme know.

Beasley was 6'7 in his barefeet.

The problem with these ratings is that it doesn't tell you how fast a guy is with the ball, and it's hard to rate that.

Chris Paul isn't the fastest player in the league, but he doesn't lose any speed with a dribble.

Thats the beauty of 2k10. Ballhandling governs speed with the ball. Even with an 82 Dwight Howard is pretty slow dribbling up the court while Paul keeps his speed. Its true with offhand too. A player with a 90 in speed and ballhandling with a 50 in offhand will move slowly when dribbling with that hand.


I have test rosters up with 5 teams.
The Celts, Blazers, Clippers, Kings, and the Magic.
XB gt is max1000000 like maximilian

Here are the updates
speed/quickness/strength/vert the + is for onball defense boost
L.Aldridge 67/44/75/55/ +10
N. Batum 73/79//48/62/ +12
J(Rex)Bayless 91/86/64/83
S.Blake 81/83/32/58 +7
J.Collins 46/44/86/35
D.Cunningham 73/72/81/65
R.Fernandez 74/95/33/64 … he was off the charts I knocked him down to a 95
J.Howard 67/67/76/51
A.Miller 73/78/62/62
G.Oden 69/42/92/66
T.Outlaw 70/61/69/76
J.Pendergraph 80/36/68/67
J.Pryzbilla 63/64/89/30
B.Roy 79/86/62/81
I.Udoka 72/70/58/58/60
M.Webster 73/74/66/60 +12
Kinggies
J. brockman 56/49/87/50 +5
O.Casspi 73/79/54/48
M.Ely 62/49/74/47
T.Evans 85/69/52/64…footwork issues… http://www.bulletsforever.com/2009/5...t-tyreke-evans
D.Greene 79/74/57/56
S.Hawes 49/34/70/46 +4
K.Martin 82/78/36/68
D.Mason 80/72/66/86
S.May 60/57/77/46
A.Nocioni 68/75/76/53
S.Rodriguez 75/85/34/55
K.Thomas 66/65/78/59 +15
J.Thompson 71/65/81/70 +10
B.Udrih 76/76/56/51
Francisco Garcia 68/90/54/46 gave him a 77 in blocks (long over do) might be a bit high but with a 46 vert he could use it
Celtdogs
T.Allen 81/93/58/67
R.Allen 78/86/57/65
M.Daniels 77/68/54/64
G.Davis 72/66/84/68 +50 poster boy for ridiculous onball score
K.Garnett 73/71/80/76 +25
JR Giddens 77/74/56/87
E.House 76/82/51/70
L.Hudson 84/87/61
K.Perkins 60/58/87/50
P.Pierce 76/76/61/65
R.Rondo 90/92/45/81
Scalabrine 53/44//76/48
M.Sweetney 50/40
B.Walker 76/70/62/88
R.Wallace 66/58/75/61 +12 +8 in low post D
S.Williams 47/55/92/62
Clips
R.Butler 73/65/61/70 +10 to onball
M.Camby 65/57/73/63 +10 to onball
M.Collins 77/62/58/72 I don’t know how his defense is??
R.Davis 78/77/61/65
B.Davis 82/83/71/76 +7 in dunks
E.Gordon 96/92/68/76
B.Griffin 70/81/88/67 +20 to onball D
D.Jordan 70/31/76/47
C.Kaman 62/63/78/42 +14onball
J.Mcneal ??
S.Novak 66/82/55/40
A.Roberson ??
K***sh 75/76/65/46
B.Skinner 53/45/78/51
C.Smith 62/52/77/55 +22onball
S.Telfair 80/86/62/72
A.Thornton 84/56/63/84

Jordan only had a 42 in strength. The strength ratings are almost as crazy as the speed
Magic
Morris Almond 81/67/64/66
Brandon Bass 77/54/78/62 +20
Vince Carter 84/85/63/91
Marcin Gortat 65/55/78/66
Dwight Howard 82/73/84/68 +15
Jameer Nelson 88/88/71/64 +6
JJ Redick 74/87/51/54
Ryan Anderson 54/56/60/37
Matt Barnes 76/90/65/82
Adonal Foyle 43/30/67/45
Anthony Johnson 69/9762/54
Rashard Lewis 74/76/68/66
Mikael Pietrus 84/79/58/78 +17
J Williams 76/78/38/69

[DC]

Re: If anyone wants to tack on my physical and onball ratings lemme know.

How did you get your strength rating?

[Kaanyr Vhok]

Re: If anyone wants to tack on my physical and onball ratings lemme know.

How did you get your strength rating?

Thats a good question. There is nothing like an idiot trying to create a mathematical formula. I'm smart enough to make macros in a massive mutiplayer game but excel takes forever so I said screw the macro and just used a calculator.

This is going to sound overly complex for a reason .

I started off with a scale of 15-55. Basically I take the weight of the player and make it a two didget number. So 155 punds is a 15, 300 is a 30. Then I add that number to their bench score. So a player that benched 185 at the combine 8 times and weighs 200 pounds gets a 28. I take that 28 and divide it by the max score they can get which is a 55. So I get a .50. I then make that .50 a 50 and subtract 10% to make up for the fact that the range starts with 15. So now I have a 45. I then divide the 45 by 100 to get .45 and multiply it by the max rating I can give to a player from 25 which is 74 but I use 75. So I multiply .45 by 75 and get 33 then I add 25 and get 58. The 58 is the initial rating for that player but it can be modified based on position, age, when they did the bench press, current age, work ethic, technique, star power and maybe a couple of other factors. So lets say the player is a PG with a good work ethic and everything else is equal. I might lower the point by 1 and they end up with a 57.

When In dont know the players bench I look it up and at the worse guess based on whatever scouting or info I can find. When I guess I usally round to the nearest 5 so I dont miss the mark by much.

[SonicMage]

Re: If anyone wants to tack on my physical and onball ratings lemme know.

Thats a good question. There is nothing like an idiot trying to create a mathematical formula. I'm smart enough to make macros in a massive mutiplayer game but excel takes forever so I said screw the macro and just used a calculator.

This is going to sound overly complex for a reason .

I started off with a scale of 15-55. Basically I take the weight of the player and make it a two didget number. So 155 punds is a 15, 300 is a 30. Then I add that number to their bench score. So a player that benched 185 at the combine 8 times and weighs 200 pounds gets a 28. I take that 28 and divide it by the max score they can get which is a 55. So I get a .50. I then make that .50 a 50 and subtract 10% to make up for the fact that the range starts with 15. So now I have a 45. I then divide the 45 by 100 to get .45 and multiply it by the max rating I can give to a player from 25 which is 74 but I use 75. So I multiply .45 by 75 and get 33 then I add 25 and get 58. The 58 is the initial rating for that player but it can be modified based on position, age, when they did the bench press, current age, work ethic, technique, star power and maybe a couple of other factors. So lets say the player is a PG with a good work ethic and everything else is equal. I might lower the point by 1 and they end up with a 57.

When In dont know the players bench I look it up and at the worse guess based on whatever scouting or info I can find. When I guess I usally round to the nearest 5 so I dont miss the mark by much.

It sounds to me like you're fitting a value within a certain range (15-55) and then using proportions to scale it up for the ratings range (25-100).

If so, your subtraction by 10% is throwing off the calculation.

Given your numbers, instead try this formula which is a simplification:

strength = 1.875 * (((weight/10)+presses) - 15) + 25

In your example case, the strength rating would be 49, which is correct since 49 is roughly a third of the way between 25 and 100, just like 28 is roughly a third of the way between 15 and 55.

Does this work for you?

[Kaanyr Vhok]

Re: If anyone wants to tack on my physical and onball ratings lemme know.

It sounds to me like you're fitting a value within a certain range (15-55) and then using proportions to scale it up for the ratings range (25-100).

If so, your subtraction by 10% is throwing off the calculation.

Given your numbers, instead try this formula which is a simplification:

strength = 1.875 * (((weight/10)+presses) - 15) + 25

In your example case, the strength rating would be 49, which is correct since 49 is roughly a third of the way between 25 and 100, just like 28 is roughly a third of the way between 15 and 55.

Does this work for you?

Thats a good suggestion. I was looking for a similar formula but I was stumped on the -15. I think I'm going to take your formula an change the 75 so the range isnt 25-99. I want more room for reputation and other factors. I generally want a stronger curve.

[Real2KInsider]

Re: If anyone wants to tack on my physical and onball ratings lemme know.

So what you're saying is...

the poor speed ratings for bigs is what's effecting the trash help defense in this game?

[ffaacc03]

Re: If anyone wants to tack on my physical and onball ratings lemme know.

Thats a good suggestion. I was looking for a similar formula but I was stumped on the -15. I think I'm going to take your formula an change the 75 so the range isnt 25-99. I want more room for reputation and other factors. I generally want a stronger curve.

So what you're saying is...

the poor speed ratings for bigs is what's effecting the trash help defense in this game?

[jwoodson15]

Re: If anyone wants to tack on my physical and onball ratings lemme know.

On your list of players who is Alexander? No first name posted.

[DC]

Re: If anyone wants to tack on my physical and onball ratings lemme know.

^ Joe