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Old 05-03-2013, 05:46 PM   #865
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

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Originally Posted by JasonWilliams55
Having a att/po ratio close to 1:1 will provide the best gameplay, cause it will give the CPU a 50/50 chance of shooting/passing when the 'drive/spot up' finishes. Of course some players need to be a different ratio cause that is how they are, but trying to keep it as close to possible to 1:1 will make them seem smarter/more unpredictable.

1 attack, 1 pass out is = to 100 attack, 100 pass out.
Lol you are gonna keep fighting me on this aren't you?

There is a big difference between 1 attack and 100 attack. The difference has nothing to do with pass out.
It is a frequency gage of how much a guy wants to attack.

Pleeeeeeeaaaaasssseeee, go test that.
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Old 05-03-2013, 05:48 PM   #866
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

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Originally Posted by bigtreydawg
I've put the slider back to 50 and I'm now trying to find the sweet spot between aggressively defending against the shot and jumping for no F-ing reason.

The most noticeable difference is in the post. With the contest shot slider at 100 defenders were really crowding the post man instead of staring at them and waiting for them to make a move. I may just raise contest shot for bigs.

Another problem, if someone has an 80 in block with a high contest shot then they swing for the fences on jumpshots, it looks so silly.

A controlled test is in order to figure out how to get appropriate levels of harassment without the subsequent jump.

J-Will, you think shot rating might be a factor in one dribble pull ups? I played with shot tendency (I gave Lebron an 89 in 3pt and then ran a gang of test). He shot a lot more assisted threes even with the D all over him, he even pulled up in traffic a few times but the few one dribble pull up I got also came from Dwayne who had a 3pt shot tendency in the low 30s.

If you could help me out with this, that would be great.
I think shot rating may have an effect on whether the player will shoot from anywhere. I was thinking that the CPU would calculate a higher outcome with higher ratings so a 99 mid range + 99 mid tend > 1 mid range + 99 tend.
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Old 05-03-2013, 06:02 PM   #867
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

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Originally Posted by bigtreydawg
Lol you are gonna keep fighting me on this aren't you?

There is a big difference between 1 attack and 100 attack. The difference has nothing to do with pass out.
It is a frequency gage of how much a guy wants to attack.

Pleeeeeeeaaaaasssseeee, go test that.
No its the frequency ratio of whether to attack or pass out, the only two options to finish a drive, if you could point me to other options for a player to do after a drive, I'm all ears . 100 attack 100 pass out is 1:1 ratio, 1 attack 1 pass out is 1:1 ratio.

100 attack 0 pass out = 1 attack 0 pass out, this is 100% computer logic in its most basic form, therefore 100 att 0 pass = 1 attack 0 pass, which means that 1 attack, 1 pass out = 100 attack, 100 pass. Now I did believe that 100/100 was > 1/1 and would produce more aggressive outcomes, but after seeing how the GnR sliders play and what Czar said, I am back to ratio land.

Attack pass is only for the end of the drive/su.

2k uses ratios in all of their tendencies, but yet in this att/po to finish a drive its not. Care to explain how its not a ratio and how it actually works then?
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Old 05-03-2013, 06:06 PM   #868
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

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Originally Posted by JasonWilliams55
These sliders modify the defensive contest scores, meaning, raising release will scale the overall defensive rating towards the defensive rating at time of release, raising gather will scale the overall defensive rating towards the defensive rating at the time of the gather.

At 50/50 the game calculates the defensive score equally from both. I brought the question up to Da_Czar if 100/100 > 50/50 and he said that last he saw, it was not, as they produce the same ratio 1:1.


2k needs to put up a visual representation of defense ala the offense gets with shot feedback, I need feedback for my defense , its already in the game somewhat, but only in the form of MyPlayer.
1st: From what I tested at 35 (gather):25 (release) the shot feedback for the contest portion turned up green. This was with a hand in the face after doing a triple threat move (usually the jab step).

2nd: I wish that could be so as well, but what we can only get as a visual representation is from the shot shot feedback indirectly. From what I've tested getting a red bar on the contest slider is more likely to be seen with the gather and release sliders above 50 which drastically decreases the grade by an entire grade to 2 grade levels (B+ to a C or a C+ to a D-) depending on the severity of ratio shifted (Say 55 Gather and 70 release, which I got from your Slider thread by the way ).

I think lowering the release slider down to around 35 should get me the result I'm looking for...(which is a yellow contest shot indicator on the shot feedback). What I'm specifically trying to recreate on a consistent basis is "Pretty good defense, better offense" by allowing the user or CPU to simply shoot over a smaller defender or be able to pull up is the defender is too slow to properly contest the jumpshot.
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Old 05-03-2013, 06:13 PM   #869
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonWilliams55
No its the frequency ratio of whether to attack or pass out, the only two options to finish a drive, if you could point me to other options for a player to do after a drive, I'm all ears . 100 attack 100 pass out is 1:1 ratio, 1 attack 1 pass out is 1:1 ratio.

100 attack 0 pass out = 1 attack 0 pass out, this is 100% computer logic in its most basic form, therefore 100 att 0 pass = 1 attack 0 pass, which means that 1 attack, 1 pass out = 100 attack, 100 pass.

Attack pass is only for the end of the drive/su.

2k uses ratios in all of their tendencies, but yet in this att/po to finish a drive its not. Care to explain how its not a ratio and how it actually works then?
Yes.

When you see a player constantly bouncing off of his defender in a rediculous effort to get to the rim it is because of his attack rating. If you set it to 0 and give him a high drive the lane tendency he will stop right outside the key and pull up jumper. If you set it to 100 he will barge through his defender like he's running away from so much fire.

The same applies to pass out and QpC found out (and even posted a video) that a high pass out rating of 80 and up can even make the ball handler tell a guy to cut (more testing needs to go into figuring that last part out.) I've been having a problem with Haslem where he won't pass and he won't attack because I have him at 0 in pass and attack so now he just holds the ball and wastes everyone's time. I fixed this by giving him a 30 in pass out and a 5 in attack. Now he passes the ball away without having the telekinetic powers to make Chris Bosh cut to the basket. And if the opportunity presents itself he will attack because he has a 5 rating to do so.
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Old 05-03-2013, 06:37 PM   #870
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

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Originally Posted by bigtreydawg
Yes.

When you see a player constantly bouncing off of his defender in a rediculous effort to get to the rim it is because of his attack rating. If you set it to 0 and give him a high drive the lane tendency he will stop right outside the key and pull up jumper. If you set it to 100 he will barge through his defender like he's running away from so much fire.

The same applies to pass out and QpC found out (and even posted a video) that a high pass out rating of 80 and up can even make the ball handler tell a guy to cut (more testing needs to go into figuring that last part out.) I've been having a problem with Haslem where he won't pass and he won't attack because I have him at 0 in pass and attack so now he just holds the ball and wastes everyone's time. I fixed this by giving him a 30 in pass out and a 5 in attack. Now he passes the ball away without having the telekinetic powers to make Chris Bosh cut to the basket. And if the opportunity presents itself he will attack because he has a 5 rating to do so.
1st paragraph - Pull/Pen determines whether the player will try and continue to 'push' thru the defense or stop, not attack/pass out. What were the pull/pen tends at during these?

2nd para - passing rating + pass acc allows the player to lead pass players into the paint. pass out only gives the ability to pass out at the end of the drive. Having a higher pass out to attack ratio only makes him pass out more often to finish the drive/su. Putting it at 80 with what for attack? What was the ratio? 80:1 or 80/50=8:5, that is a big difference in outcome scenarios. 80:1 is obviously much more weighted to pass out (80 times to 1), rather than 8 to 5.

With your Haslem, see giving him 0/0 and he didn't know what to do, but as soon as you gave him a ratio, bam he started up again. 30 pass out to 5 attack, so a 6:1 ratio, so he is 6x more likely to pass out to finish the drive than attack. Now give him 60 pass out, 10 attack, and I guarantee that he plays the same.

Have you ever bumped pass accuracy way up? If not, try it out.
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Old 05-03-2013, 06:40 PM   #871
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

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Originally Posted by DukeC
1st: From what I tested at 35 (gather):25 (release) the shot feedback for the contest portion turned up green. This was with a hand in the face after doing a triple threat move (usually the jab step).

2nd: I wish that could be so as well, but what we can only get as a visual representation is from the shot shot feedback indirectly. From what I've tested getting a red bar on the contest slider is more likely to be seen with the gather and release sliders above 50 which drastically decreases the grade by an entire grade to 2 grade levels (B+ to a C or a C+ to a D-) depending on the severity of ratio shifted (Say 55 Gather and 70 release, which I got from your Slider thread by the way ).

I think lowering the release slider down to around 35 should get me the result I'm looking for...(which is a yellow contest shot indicator on the shot feedback). What I'm specifically trying to recreate on a consistent basis is "Pretty good defense, better offense" by allowing the user or CPU to simply shoot over a smaller defender or be able to pull up is the defender is too slow to properly contest the jumpshot.
Duke, play with the ratios for the shot GnR more, well I originally thought having a higher number even if ratio remained the same would equal stronger results and this somewhat proves it but Czar has 1st hand knowledge of this exact slider and says otherwise. 55/70 divide by 5 = 11/14, try that ratio for shot g/r and see if the results are the same as 55/70. Easiest way to confirm. If the results come back with lessened shot defense, then that would mean 40/80 > 20/40.
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Last edited by JasonWilliams55; 05-03-2013 at 06:45 PM.
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Old 05-03-2013, 07:20 PM   #872
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

Go look at how 2k rates the players, especially the stars, big name teams, as they will have the best tendencies since most people will play with/against them and 2k would need to have those teams/players atleast somewhat representable. So with that lets look at the Champ Miami Heat att/po tends + some other notables. This is off the newest 2k roster, w/e date that was from.

Name - ATT/PO - Ratio - notes

LBJ - 45/55 - 9:11 - Close to 1:1 , slightly favored to pass out
Dwade - 70/30 - 7:3 - 2.3x more likely to attack than pass out
Bosh - 45/55 - almost 1:1 again, slight advantage to pass out.
RayRay - 35/65 - 7:13 - ~2x more likely to pass out at end of drive, FL spot up 99, DTL 50 = 50 spot up = when catching he has equal chance of pulling or driving, the ultimate I don't know how to defend, cause like I said 50/50 is the most unpredictable. Add in his 75 3pt tend, he will pull if given space to off the catch, but has an equal chance to DTL.
Chalmers - 35/65
Battier - 20/80
Haslem - 65/35 - You don't want Udonis passing out at the end of a drive, he is a big, you want him to try and go up to finish strong, not wuss out and pass out, couple in a terrible pass rating and I am sure it would be a turnover for sure.
Cole - 55/45

So far what do they all have in common????? They all equal up to 100... OMG... could JW be right?

Kidd - 35/65 - almost 1:2 pass out favored
Prigioni - 25/75 - a 1:3 pass out favored, lets push this ratio out to 7x, so it looks like this instead 7:21 for comparison for the next player.

Rubio - 35/55 - 7:11 - doesnt equal 100, only 90, but this creates a tighter ratio, as it seems 2k likes the 35/65 for passers, this creates a 7:13 ratio, now look at how 7:13 is a tighter spread than 7:21, lets reduce both of these down now, 7:13->1:1.85 = ~1:2, 7:21->1:3.

Westbrook - 70/30 - attack slightly over 2:1 towards attack (2.3333:1), more aggressive, less pass to finish the drive, realistic.

Durant - 75/25 - 3:1 - 3x more likely to try and score after drive than dish.

Kevin Martin - 55/45 - 11:9 - almost 1:1 again, why? cause again it creates unpredictability in logic, as a defender your unsure on whether he is gonna dish or score.

Notice how the majority of players = 100.

Now I am not trying to say that they have to = 100, they obviously uncoupled the sliders so that they don't have to be, but as I have said before, making the = 100 or 55:45, 20:80 or 58:42, makes it 10000% easier to look at the ratios than to have 72:64 or 99:82 or 11:14.
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Last edited by JasonWilliams55; 05-03-2013 at 07:26 PM.
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