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Old 05-03-2013, 11:15 PM   #889
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

Wow, a lot happened today.

Lots of good stuff, lots of math.

Here is my issue, while impressive none of it really explains what I am seeing in the game(or at least I am not understanding how it explains it).

Here is some gameplay with my latest edits(some of which came from out of no where). I'll also list some tendencies for some of the principle players.



CPU v CPU
Gameplay: Pro
Sliders: All at 50 except;
Vertical=0
D Awareness=100
Take Inside Shot=0
Take Close Shot=0
Take Mid range=75
Take 3pt=55
Attack the Basket=0
Look for post=0
Backdorr cuts=0
All fouls=100

Coach Profiles:
Tempo - Both=90
D Pressure - CHI=75, LAL=70
Help D - CHI=75, LAL=70
FastBreak - Both=90
Crash Glass - Both=25
Run Plays - CHI=75, LAL=25
Double Team - CHI=60, LAL=50
Take Inside and Close - Both=0
Take Mid - Both=75
Take 3pt=Both=55
Attack the basket - Both=0
Look for Post - Both=0

Player Tendencies: All Players - DTL=0, PU=0
Jordan - ATT=25, PO=50
Pippen - ATT=25, PO=50
Paxson - ATT=0, PO=50
Grant - ATT=0, PO=0
Cartwright - ATT=0, PO=0

Magic - ATT=0, PO=99
Scott - ATT=0, PO=50
Worthy - ATT=25, PO=50
Perkins - ATT=0, PO=0
Divac - ATT=0, PO=0

Based off this, I can only assume that adding in DTL would only increase the CPU's attack frequency. Therefore I would need to increase pass out which is already outside of a 1:1 ratio for players with a propensity to 'attack the basket'.
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Old 05-03-2013, 11:45 PM   #890
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

With pull up at 0, that means you have penetration at 100.

Why is fastbreak and tempo at 90?

First play, ran a post play to Vlade. Nothing special.

2nd play, very slow tempo, running play to fullest, Jordan uses TT move to initiate, then Pen at 100 forces him into paint, contact is made. Rating advantage probably made him go at Scott coupled with 100pen. Ratings have to play into the equations on what to do.

3rd play, scott pulls due to being wide open.

4th, Scotty with the TT move.

Then it goes into GSW vs DEN gameplay with the back and forth. Not one of those is a drive and I would say its FB + FL kicking in.

3:10 - notice the room pax is given by magic, he moves into mid range (only thing he has #s for, since ins, clo = 0) pulls up then passes out. Shot loc made him shoot, 0 for att and 50 po made him pass.

Overall, I see some pretty terrible gameplay. Nothing but pushing off misses like mad (90 fastbreak, 90 tempo prob doesnt help), and slow make 7 passes before trying to score offense.

Even with att at 0, they will have to shoot, 2k wouldnt allow a slider to completely break the game, so when they cross into a shot loc that is high enough (plus the coaching + gameplay slider for mid/3 being boosted up) they are gonna shoot the ball. Ratings may tie into the shot equations as I have mentioned before.

cartwright with the mid shot.

7.25 Worthy with TT move to the left, crosses, rides pip to the paint, cross back again penetrating further, then running hook shot (close), could have been a old school lay animation, cant tell from this angle, usually play on 2k.
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Old 05-03-2013, 11:45 PM   #891
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

Quote:
Originally Posted by qpc123
Wow, a lot happened today.

Lots of good stuff, lots of math.

Here is my issue, while impressive none of it really explains what I am seeing in the game(or at least I am not understanding how it explains it).

Here is some gameplay with my latest edits(some of which came from out of no where). I'll also list some tendencies for some of the principle players.



CPU v CPU
Gameplay: Pro
Sliders: All at 50 except;
Vertical=0
D Awareness=100
Take Inside Shot=0
Take Close Shot=0
Take Mid range=75
Take 3pt=55
Attack the Basket=0
Look for post=0
Backdorr cuts=0
All fouls=100

Coach Profiles:
Tempo - Both=90
D Pressure - CHI=75, LAL=70
Help D - CHI=75, LAL=70
FastBreak - Both=90
Crash Glass - Both=25
Run Plays - CHI=75, LAL=25
Double Team - CHI=60, LAL=50
Take Inside and Close - Both=0
Take Mid - Both=75
Take 3pt=Both=55
Attack the basket - Both=0
Look for Post - Both=0

Player Tendencies: All Players - DTL=0, PU=0
Jordan - ATT=25, PO=50
Pippen - ATT=25, PO=50
Paxson - ATT=0, PO=50
Grant - ATT=0, PO=0
Cartwright - ATT=0, PO=0

Magic - ATT=0, PO=99
Scott - ATT=0, PO=50
Worthy - ATT=25, PO=50
Perkins - ATT=0, PO=0
Divac - ATT=0, PO=0

Based off this, I can only assume that adding in DTL would only increase the CPU's attack frequency. Therefore I would need to increase pass out which is already outside of a 1:1 ratio for players with a propensity to 'attack the basket'.
You can really see the difference between attack and drive in this video. There is no catch and go but there is a moment of hesitation before a player decides to drive.
Also with attack at 0 for most the Lakers it's incredible how much shot locations tendencies force aggression. I'm thinking about just punching in the raw data for Slimm's scale and using the coach profile to manipulate where people shoot.

What were you testing? Are these the edits you want to stick with because that's weird.
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Old 05-03-2013, 11:55 PM   #892
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

J-Will, I'm watching a Knick Vs Knick default game with no slider edits, I see Carmelo and JR escape dribble pull up at the same frequency of my Dwayne and Lebron. In just looking at your sliders I can't really tell what would be a deciding factor in getting them to escape dribble/one dribble pull up from deep. Can you think of any?

I'm gonna punch in the numbers just to be sure but I'm not hopeful.
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Old 05-04-2013, 12:21 AM   #893
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigtreydawg
You can really see the difference between attack and drive in this video. There is no catch and go but there is a moment of hesitation before a player decides to drive.
Also with attack at 0 for most the Lakers it's incredible how much shot locations tendencies force aggression. I'm thinking about just punching in the raw data for Slimm's scale and using the coach profile to manipulate where people shoot.

What were you testing? Are these the edits you want to stick with because that's weird.
I found that while you can cut down on the occurrences, you can't fully eliminate the CPU cuts to the basket. Sometimes they are part of a play and its not that don't want them occur, its more that the CPU was passing to them to frequently when it was uncalled for and would break a play.

After trying several things to eliminate this I found that PO above 50 seemed to cause theses passes more often(may be placebo).

A thought that passed through my mind was, "what if 'look for post players' causes the CPU players to look to pass to the player closest to the basket first? Could this be the reason that post players always seem to 'see' the player flashing back door from the opposite post?"

That is why I went with the zero 'look for post' setting.

As for the other settings, they are adjustments in attempts to replicate the early 90's NBA. I've watched a lot of the '91 playoffs on YouTube lately.

Here is the easiest way I can explain what I am going for. To me one of the biggest and most obvious changes is the amount of 3 point shooting. Basically, a lot of the shots that came from the 3-15 foot range(close) in '91, have shifted to the 3 point range. Less post up shots, which typically take place in that 3-5 foot range is another factor.

So the CPU attacking isn't exactly a bad thing for me. However, from what I see unless the ratings are high players do not use as much of a locations full range. For example, if inside and close are both low, with close being slightly higher, players will be more apt to drive right to the edge of the inside and close regions for that weird little pull-up.

I'd like to increase close shots, but really I want more 3-7 foot shots than 8-15 foot, but in order to induce this I get guys like Cartwright, who should take shots for 3-7 feet taking more 12-15 footers than he should because the high tendency for close shots 'unlocks' shots from a wider range within the region.
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Last edited by qpc123; 05-04-2013 at 02:33 PM.
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Old 05-04-2013, 12:25 AM   #894
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

Quote:
Originally Posted by DukeC
I think I may have found my perfect sweet spot in terms of the effectiveness on closing out/contesting jumpers.

0 (Jump Shot Gather)
50-60 (Jump Shot Release)

What this does is allow taller players to reliably shoot over smaller and/or lesser defenders without much penalty (only go down from a B to B- or even no penalty at all if the player has a 5+ inch height advantage and a low contest shot tendency).

At first I was just hoping I could get the "Hands down Man down" reliably implemented into the game. As a nice side effect I was also able to increase the effectiveness of face up jumpers out of the post. Now, instead of getting a C- for doing a face up jumper (because of the Gather defense being too high) I'm now able to get B and B-. Making this an effective tactic for face up big men.

Now if only there was a slider that increased the effectiveness of Post Fadeaways
Duke do you still feel that the gather/release on jump shots should still be 0/60? Also what about the layup gather/release?
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Old 05-04-2013, 01:13 AM   #895
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

Quote:
Originally Posted by qpc123
I found that while you can cut down on the occurrences, you can fully eliminate the CPU cuts to the basket. Sometimes they are part of a play and its not that don't want them occur, its more that the CPU was passing to them to frequently when it was uncalled for and would break a play.

After trying several things to eliminate this I found that PO above 50 seemed to cause theses passes more often(may be placebo).

A thought that passed through my mind was, "what if 'look for post players' causes the CPU players to look to pass to the player closest to the basket first? Could this be the reason that post players always seem to 'see' the player flashing back door from the opposite post?"

That is why I went with the zero 'look for post' setting.

As for the other settings, they are adjustments in attempts to replicate the early 90's NBA. I've watched a lot of the '91 playoffs on YouTube lately.

Here is the easiest way I can explain what I am going for. To me one of the biggest and most obvious changes is the amount of 3 point shooting. Basically, a lot of the shots that came from the 3-15 foot range(close) in '91, have shifted to the 3 point range. Less post up shots, which typically take place in that 3-5 foot range is another factor.

So the CPU attacking isn't exactly a bad thing for me. However, from what I see unless the ratings are high players do not use as much of a locations full range. For example, if inside and close are both low, with close being slightly higher, players will be more apt to drive right to the edge of the inside and close regions for that weird little pull-up.

I'd like to increase close shots, but really I want more 3-7 foot shots than 8-15 foot, but in order to induce this I get guys like Cartwright, who should take shots for 3-7 feet taking more 12-15 footers than he should because the high tendency for close shots 'unlocks' shots from a wider range within the region.
Have had that same exact thought, never pursued the pass to post slider though as last year I believe sim sliders had it up like 83 or so. It has always been like that for as long as I can think back with 2k.
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Old 05-04-2013, 01:42 AM   #896
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

J-Will I plugged in your sliders and the occurence of more pull up 3s seems to be related to perimeter defensive pressure.

Carmelo and JR tendencies are strikingly low for take 3pt shot but the take triple threat shot and pull up are what they should be for escape dribble pull ups to occur. The default coach profile has Take 3 much higher than the other shot location tendencies which is normal.

So the only thing I can attribute this to is your lowered on ball defense(i watched it on pro not HOF, does that matter?)It's like the CPU knows there is a bad defender in front of him and is willing to pull up. I did not see three in the first quarter but over the course of a 48 minute game there were 5 from a team that is known to take liberties with 3pt attempts so it was still a disappointing result.

Tomorrow I'm gonna try lowering defensive pressure and contest shot . . . And gather and release to see if that makes a difference.

I wish there was a slider for one dribble pull ups

Last edited by bigtreydawg; 05-04-2013 at 01:48 AM.
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