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Old 05-04-2013, 12:20 PM   #905
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigtreydawg
Oh cool I planned on lowering lay ups in addition to lowering standing dunk ratings, does that lead to more in game blocks or does it just increase that wonky sideways layup animation?
It may be a placebo but I think it does increase the amount of blocks overall (If you lower the layup ratings). Especially when a big man attempts to put up a contested layup the defender (with a high enough block rating) can send it back quite frequently. Maybe 2-3 times during the course of a 12 minute game.
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Old 05-04-2013, 11:26 PM   #906
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Ok so the attack the basket vs pass out dilemma has been bugging me. I have gone back and forth numerous times over the past 3 years. The discussion yesterday was fascinating and had me thinking. I understand that 2k defines attack as "after the drive" and it seems to be a ratio...but why would they give us a ratio when they never do? Well technically DTL vs SU is a ratio...but why give us the option to put both a 100 if it was supposed to be a true ratio? Anyway..I just had a crazy thought...what if the player could attack AND pass out? This would be the scenario where the player is attacking the rim but then passes out while in the air. Which would be different than driving and just passing out on the drive. So you have players who drive and kick 0 ATK 100 PO, players who attack with tunnel vision 100/0 and players who attack the rim but also look to pass out at the last minute. Of course this would need to be tested and could just be crazy thinking with the goal of feeling satisfied with 2k's mysterious lay out of these tendencies...
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Old 05-05-2013, 10:51 AM   #907
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

Thank you Sellaz! That was the point I was trying to make.
You can do both independently of each other.

Add this, to the dribbling edits I made . . .


Quote:
Originally Posted by bigtreydawg
When Tomba put out his first slider set in 07 it was meant with a lot of controversy. It was a very strange way to edit and adjust the game but what I took from that and what I've tried to implement in every 2k game I've purchased since then is the idea that it should not be too hard to get around your defender.

In real life Basketball you see bad players driving to the lane all the time, they don't get bumped at the freethrow and pick up their dribble, they make it all the way to the hoop. What separates the Jared Dudleys from the Kobe Bryants is what happens when they get to the rim. Do they posterize their defender or do they get their **** sent flying into the third row? Do they make an accurate pass to the guy spotting in the corner or are they stripped on the way in causing a turnover when the ball bounces off their knee?

Initially I went to Tomba's thread to get an idea as to how I could see these results but I feel like he went more left field than usual this year.

The easy answer would be to lower on ball defense but that causes these major problems:

Force Field - when on ball defense is 70 or lower an invisible bubble between you and your defender forms. The ball handler is making his dribble moves and the defender is mirroring him at a two foot distance that looks really strange.

Defensive pressure - I found this out when I was playing with the classic teams. The highest rated defender on the Utah jazz was Bryan Russell with 80. When I turned defensive pressure all the way up in the coach slider all the defenders except for Russell gave their man way to much room (especially Stockton and Hornececk on the perimeter).

Contact animations - the physics engine for 2k13 is down right awesome. It is on full display when you see Thabo guarding Kobe. It's beautiful to watch a high rated ball handler go up against a high rated defender. We rob ourselves of that when on ball defense is lowered into 70. Contact animations do not initialize and the guy driving to the hoop is "stuck" on a guy that isn't really playing defense but is somehow managing to stop your progress.

So what I've done is drastically raise the ball handling for every guard and small forward on every team.

My rationale behind this is every guard in the NBA is a great ballhandler, Steve Blake would ball you up at a YMCA he deserves a 95 rating. Royal Ivey does not make waves in the NBA but he is still your first pick on your playground pick up game. He deserves a high rating.

My initially test run of this gave me good results but here is a major problem I ran into

The Mismatch mechanic - I had previously thought the game acknowledged mismatches by position if a guard is on a center then the play they would have called gets over written and the CPU posts up. Conversely if a center is on a guard then an ISO will be called .

However this is not the case, the mismatch mechanic and the switching on screens mechanic is statistics based. If the ballhandler has significantly higher handles than the on-ball defense of the man guarding him then the computer will Iso the mismatch. I found this out when I gave Jeff Foster an 85 in ball handling (I know, I'm dumb). Even though Foster had no touch tendency and very little shot tendencies, without fail, whenever he was subbed in the CPU insisted on a High Post ISO. Because I had all of his dribble moves at zilch he literally sprinted into his defender (no contact animation) until he was close enough to put up a bad shot.

This is why Tomba's previous model of high handles low on-ball d won't work.

Also most of you should be able to see instances of this in your Roster. Power Forwards with good handles like Garnett and Bosh occasionally end up in this situation. I had to turn play vision on to see this because MIA High (the play in the Heat's playbook) and a wing Iso are very similar but through play vision I could see that they were calling a 'quick ISO' for Bosh when they really shouldn't be. But because his Handles were much higher than the perimeter D of Reggie Evans the CPU declared it a mismatch.

I'm still debating what I want to do with power forwards and Centers that aren't good ball handlers but I'm definetly going to take more of a letter grade approach to on ball d. Meaning if Reggie Evans is a D defender on the perimeter then he get a 68 not a 35.

Another problem is there are various little factors that contribute to how well a player can get past his defender. Strength quickness and Speed. If anyone would like to help me test this that would be great.

SLIMM just loves ruining my ideas. Every since he mentioned that he plays with quickness on 0 to better see a contrast between sprinting and walking I've been doing so. It was a great move because now I'm seeing more animations of players slipping and putting their hands on the ground when they're trying to make quick cuts, but it drastically cuts down on the open court agility of ballhandlers, I'd rather not butcher the quickness rating of every player so I may have to use a slider. Ugh.

Anyway, feel free to point out glaring holes in my logic I need the criticism to fine tune this idea but so far it looks beautiful.
. . . and it does not require much from Attack or Drive the Lane to ensure effective penetration. So J-Will, in no way is the offensive aggression of my players "neutered". Now ever perimeter player is capable of beating their defender with the first step and this drastically improves the drive and kick game.

Edit: And they drive all they way to the rim when dunk in traffic frequency is at 50. They don't settle for a two foot floater with no one near them.

Last edited by bigtreydawg; 05-05-2013 at 11:16 AM.
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Old 05-05-2013, 10:52 AM   #908
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

Posted this on another thread, but is kind of related ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ffaacc03
[b] ... I want to share something ...

Playing 2k8 for the PS2 (my PS3 is damaged and couldnt resist not to be without a bball videogame), I saw that the coaching profiles were even more detailed than the current ones ...

You could tweak the speed of the help D recovery, the agressiveness of the perimeter D, the prone to foul, the type of post D, the interior D (clog lanes), crash the boards and go after O Rebs, etc ... all separately and at once unlike currently, were some seem merged and often between them nule their effects (some should, others shouldnt) ...

We need more signature/tendencies/sliders for teams & players, as those are the sources for a better representation of them ... 2k also needs to bring back the features/modes/things that enhanced the experience and were well received by both, the sim community and the casuals.
Back then (2k8), I was scratching the ins and out of editing thus I didnt got to a "decent" level of comprehension until 2k10, so I dont know how those detailed sliders interact ... but the sole notion of having them separately opens the possibilities in such a degree, that it excites me the (improbable) possibility to have them all back (and more) for the next itineration ... if only 2k would listen.

Last edited by ffaacc03; 05-05-2013 at 10:57 AM.
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Old 05-05-2013, 01:51 PM   #909
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigtreydawg
That's what I figured, I only play on Pro or Allstar, but SLIMM tells me the difficulty boost manifest itself in needless aggression.

Besides a boost to attributes, what (if anything) is going on when you play at higher level of difficulty?

Edit: maybe they're more aggressive in all aspects and that's why you got more pull ups . . . I may be grasping at straws though.
There is a possibility that the CPU gets tendency boosts ala the attribute boosts at higher levels, but there is no way of verifying this (ala the att. boosts in the sub menu) I have looked everywhere. This 'boosts' of tendencies could be the culprit in why the CPU at HOF/SS plays more aggressive.

If it worked the same way as the ATT boosts then on HOF all players would have a +10-12 point boosts in some tendencies. Again this is pure speculation, but it would account for a lot of things. I personally don't believe it to be true, but wouldn't discount it either right now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sellaz32
Ok so the attack the basket vs pass out dilemma has been bugging me. I have gone back and forth numerous times over the past 3 years. The discussion yesterday was fascinating and had me thinking. I understand that 2k defines attack as "after the drive" and it seems to be a ratio...but why would they give us a ratio when they never do? Well technically DTL vs SU is a ratio...but why give us the option to put both a 100 if it was supposed to be a true ratio? Anyway..I just had a crazy thought...what if the player could attack AND pass out? This would be the scenario where the player is attacking the rim but then passes out while in the air. Which would be different than driving and just passing out on the drive. So you have players who drive and kick 0 ATK 100 PO, players who attack with tunnel vision 100/0 and players who attack the rim but also look to pass out at the last minute. Of course this would need to be tested and could just be crazy thinking with the goal of feeling satisfied with 2k's mysterious lay out of these tendencies...
Could have sworn that I replied to this last night with a long explanation, but alas I did not, must have been dreaming about this thread then .

I agree with your assessment here and while reading this last night a thought popped in my head, it is a ratio in conjunction with each other but also at the same time an independent slider as well (in terms of the strength of the 'outcome').

For ex:

1/1

50/50

100/100

All same ratios of either an attack or a pass happening at end of "drive", but 100 would produce a more forced outcome than 50 and 50 more forced than 1.

So with a 1, the player would essentially have a smaller window of opportunity, 50 would allow a larger window and 100 even larger.

So lets say 1 gives the player a .1 second window to either att/po, 50 a .5 and 100 a full second. What this would do, would be to allow the player to continue w/e process he is in (animation wise this would allow those passes out of a layup animation). Since a layup animation should be considered a attack process (a started one too), like Sellaz says, why is he allowed to pass out if the attack has already been initiated.

Basically what I am trying to say is that a higher number will allow the player to override w/e process in order to facilitate another process/move (ie. pass out of an attack).

Well that is basically what I thought I had already posted last night.


@duke - with the layup ratings, this would also be another + in the side that ratings do play a factor in the outcomes of what players do, a lower layup ability would produce a > outcome of blocks as then blocks would be rated higher than layups in the equation.

Does any one remember the draft combine game, and how everyone was raving about the gameplay, why were they? I believe it was due to the lowered ratings everyone had, most of the players were 50, 60 and 70 overall. The game imo plays much better with lower ratings, as it seems to me that w/ higher ratings it produces to much sliding (to get into a position they got beat on, but since the player is a 99 or w/e the game is like, no that can't happen and forces the game to makeup it, so the slide/warp then comes in).

Things to do, will comment later on.
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Old 05-05-2013, 02:00 PM   #910
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonWilliams55
Could have sworn that I replied to this last night with a long explanation, but alas I did not, must have been dreaming about this thread then .

I agree with your assessment here and while reading this last night a thought popped in my head, it is a ratio in conjunction with each other but also at the same time an independent slider as well (in terms of the strength of the 'outcome').

For ex:

1/1

50/50

100/100

All same ratios of either an attack or a pass happening at end of "drive", but 100 would produce a more forced outcome than 50 and 50 more forced than 1.

So with a 1, the player would essentially have a smaller window of opportunity, 50 would allow a larger window and 100 even larger.

So lets say 1 gives the player a .1 second window to either att/po, 50 a .5 and 100 a full second. What this would do, would be to allow the player to continue w/e process he is in (animation wise this would allow those passes out of a layup animation). Since a layup animation should be considered a attack process (a started one too), like Sellaz says, why is he allowed to pass out if the attack has already been initiated.

Basically what I am trying to say is that a higher number will allow the player to override w/e process in order to facilitate another process/move (ie. pass out of an attack).

Well that is basically what I thought I had already posted last night.
That makes a lot more sense to me. I am not quite sure the best way to test this but it sounds plausible. In my mind this an important factor in high scoring and attack assist guys such as Magic and Zeke, (I am strictly a retro roster guy) I want them to be willing to attack the basket, but also make the great pass if necessary. 50/50 just didn't feel right.
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Old 05-05-2013, 03:13 PM   #911
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sellaz32
That makes a lot more sense to me. I am not quite sure the best way to test this but it sounds plausible. In my mind this an important factor in high scoring and attack assist guys such as Magic and Zeke, (I am strictly a retro roster guy) I want them to be willing to attack the basket, but also make the great pass if necessary. 50/50 just didn't feel right.
For my '91 roster I have Magic set to ATT=1 PO=99 right now.

I believe shot location tendencies play a large in role in the 'attack/pass out'.

I am starting to see the tendencies in groups, here is how I am thinking of them.

There is a 'major' set of tendencies and a 'minor' set with smaller sub-sets within the minor set.

The 'major' set is the shot tendencies, they pretty much play a role in everything a player does(when he has the ball).

All the other tendencies are 'minor' tendencies. Within them there are certain sub-sets that are clearly grouped together to show that they 'work' together, but are not grouped and still effect other tendencies.

The 'major' tendencies can override the 'minor' ones when they are being factored together.

Using '91 Magic as an example, he shot 12.0 FGA/per 36 min. With no shot location data we have to use game tape(YouTube) and general knowledge to deduce where those 12 shots came from location wise.

The only 'known' factor is 3pt att. which were 3.1 per/36 for '91 Magic, so he takes around 9 non-3 point shots a game.

From the research(i.e. watching games on Youtube), '91 Magic took most of his shots under 3 main circumstances:
1) Transition - either leading the break or filling the lane to get to the rim
2) Dribble Penetration
3) Post Up

Of course IRL he was always more opt to pass than shoot, but this is harder to accomplish in 2k.

So, to get Magic to be a more willing passer even with attack at 1 or 0 he needs to have low close and inside shot tendencies as well as post shot tendency. (Sellaz has said 'leave post' is a "pass out of post" tendency, but from what I can see it more often causes a player to stop posting, but not move or pass, basically they, faceup and shoot, I need to test this more).

Right now I have Magic's close shot much much lower than his other location tends. This is an attempt to get him to pass from the mid/low post instead of attacking. No soild data to present as this was a late change last night I have not really tested fully.

On another topic.....

Would anyone care to post a rough scale for Hyperballer's layup edits?

I think I use a higher scale than most, but I still feel like I see the right amount of misses.

Here is my reasoning, that is kinda in line with the thinking some other edits.

These are NBA players, they are the cream of the crop(total side rant; I know some people do not buy into this theory and believe they themselves or someone they know, played with, or saw played is/was/are just as good as NBA players, with some exceptions, this is simply not the case for 99.999999999999% of the people in the world even the worst NBA player would dominate you and everyone you know).

Anyway, they can make layups. Do they still miss layups they should miss? Yes, no one makes every shot, even uncontested layups, but they make more than than they miss.

In 2k, bigs typically have very low layup ratings, which seems counter intuitive to me. Another issue is; If I'm controlling a post player and do a 'baseline spin' but not really a drive as I am close to the basket(so more like a drop step really), when I shoot is the game triggering a 'shot' animation or a 'layup' animation.

To me these situations result in 'layup' animations and often have contact involved as well. Depending on the offensive player and defender you then get results based on the ratings of those players.

What I don't want is for big, strong, inside players to miss a bunch of bunnies because they took a little bump.
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Old 05-05-2013, 03:26 PM   #912
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qpc123
For my '91 roster I have Magic set to ATT=1 PO=99 right now.

I believe shot location tendencies play a large in role in the 'attack/pass out'.

I am starting to see the tendencies in groups, here is how I am thinking of them.

There is a 'major' set of tendencies and a 'minor' set with smaller sub-sets within the minor set.

The 'major' set is the shot tendencies, they pretty much play a role in everything a player does(when he has the ball).

All the other tendencies are 'minor' tendencies. Within them there are certain sub-sets that are clearly grouped together to show that they 'work' together, but are not grouped and still effect other tendencies.

The 'major' tendencies can override the 'minor' ones when they are being factored together.

Using '91 Magic as an example, he shot 12.0 FGA/per 36 min. With no shot location data we have to use game tape(YouTube) and general knowledge to deduce where those 12 shots came from location wise.

The only 'known' factor is 3pt att. which were 3.1 per/36 for '91 Magic, so he takes around 9 non-3 point shots a game.

From the research(i.e. watching games on Youtube), '91 Magic took most of his shots under 3 main circumstances:
1) Transition - either leading the break or filling the lane to get to the rim
2) Dribble Penetration
3) Post Up

Of course IRL he was always more opt to pass than shoot, but this is harder to accomplish in 2k.

So, to get Magic to be a more willing passer even with attack at 1 or 0 he needs to have low close and inside shot tendencies as well as post shot tendency. (Sellaz has said 'leave post' is a "pass out of post" tendency, but from what I can see it more often causes a player to stop posting, but not move or pass, basically they, faceup and shoot, I need to test this more).

Right now I have Magic's close shot much much lower than his other location tends. This is an attempt to get him to pass from the mid/low post instead of attacking. No soild data to present as this was a late change last night I have not really tested fully.

On another topic.....

Would anyone care to post a rough scale for Hyperballer's layup edits?

I think I use a higher scale than most, but I still feel like I see the right amount of misses.

Here is my reasoning, that is kinda in line with the thinking some other edits.

These are NBA players, they are the cream of the crop(total side rant; I know some people do not buy into this theory and believe they themselves or someone they know, played with, or saw played is/was/are just as good as NBA players, with some exceptions, this is simply not the case for 99.999999999999% of the people in the world even the worst NBA player would dominate you and everyone you know).

Anyway, they can make layups. Do they still miss layups they should miss? Yes, no one makes every shot, even uncontested layups, but they make more than than they miss.

In 2k, bigs typically have very low layup ratings, which seems counter intuitive to me. Another issue is; If I'm controlling a post player and do a 'baseline spin' but not really a drive as I am close to the basket(so more like a drop step really), when I shoot is the game triggering a 'shot' animation or a 'layup' animation.

To me these situations result in 'layup' animations and often have contact involved as well. Depending on the offensive player and defender you then get results based on the ratings of those players.

What I don't want is for big, strong, inside players to miss a bunch of bunnies because they took a little bump.
I had a very similar thought about layups..I mean...I don't want bigs missing layups, but what happened when I scaled them up was a lot more "fancy lay ups" from guys that shouldn't. I started viewing it as similar to the dunk rating. And the inside shot rating is scaled up as their percentage of layup success falls in that area.

Oh and I still stand by my leave post theory..lol. Give a big a 100 in leave post and he will constantly pass out...Regardless of his inside or close shot tendency.
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