Home
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-13-2013, 05:06 PM   #305
Rookie
 
OVR: 0
Join Date: Apr 2011
Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigtreydawg
When Tomba put out his first slider set in 07 it was meant with a lot of controversy. It was a very strange way to edit and adjust the game but what I took from that and what I've tried to implement in every 2k game I've purchased since then is the idea that it should not be too hard to get around your defender.

In real life Basketball you see bad players driving to the lane all the time, they don't get bumped at the freethrow and pick up their dribble, they make it all the way to the hoop. What separates the Jared Dudleys from the Kobe Bryants is what happens when they get to the rim. Do they posterize their defender or do they get their **** sent flying into the third row? Do they make an accurate pass to the guy spotting in the corner or are they stripped on the way in causing a turnover when the ball bounces off their knee?

Initially I went to Tomba's thread to get an idea as to how I could see these results but I feel like he went more left field than usual this year.

The easy answer would be to lower on ball defense but that causes these major problems:

Force Field - when on ball defense is 70 or lower an invisible bubble between you and your defender forms. The ball handler is making his dribble moves and the defender is mirroring him at a two foot distance that looks really strange.

Defensive pressure - I found this out when I was playing with the classic teams. The highest rated defender on the Utah jazz was Bryan Russell with 80. When I turned defensive pressure all the way up in the coach slider all the defenders except for Russell gave their man way to much room (especially Stockton and Hornececk on the perimeter).

Contact animations - the physics engine for 2k13 is down right awesome. It is on full display when you see Thabo guarding Kobe. It's beautiful to watch a high rated ball handler go up against a high rated defender. We rob ourselves of that when on ball defense is lowered into 70. Contact animations do not initialize and the guy driving to the hoop is "stuck" on a guy that isn't really playing defense but is somehow managing to stop your progress.

So what I've done is drastically raise the ball handling for every guard and small forward on every team.

My rationale behind this is every guard in the NBA is a great ballhandler, Steve Blake would ball you up at a YMCA he deserves a 95 rating. Royal Ivey does not make waves in the NBA but he is still your first pick on your playground pick up game. He deserves a high rating.

My initially test run of this gave me good results but here is a major problem I ran into

The Mismatch mechanic - I had previously thought the game acknowledged mismatches by position if a guard is on a center then the play they would have called gets over written and the CPU posts up. Conversely if a center is on a guard then an ISO will be called .

However this is not the case, the mismatch mechanic and the switching on screens mechanic is statistics based. If the ballhandler has significantly higher handles than the on-ball defense of the man guarding him then the computer will Iso the mismatch. I found this out when I gave Jeff Foster an 85 in ball handling (I know, I'm dumb). Even though Foster had no touch tendency and very little shot tendencies, without fail, whenever he was subbed in the CPU insisted on a High Post ISO. Because I had all of his dribble moves at zilch he literally sprinted into his defender (no contact animation) until he was close enough to put up a bad shot.

This is why Tomba's previous model of high handles low on-ball d won't work.

Also most of you should be able to see instances of this in your Roster. Power Forwards with good handles like Garnett and Bosh occasionally end up in this situation. I had to turn play vision on to see this because MIA High (the play in the Heat's playbook) and a wing Iso are very similar but through play vision I could see that they were calling a 'quick ISO' for Bosh when they really shouldn't be. But because his Handles were much higher than the perimeter D of Reggie Evans the CPU declared it a mismatch.

I'm still debating what I want to do with power forwards and Centers that aren't good ball handlers but I'm definetly going to take more of a letter grade approach to on ball d. Meaning if Reggie Evans is a D defender on the perimeter then he get a 68 not a 35.

Another problem is there are various little factors that contribute to how well a player can get past his defender. Strength quickness and Speed. If anyone would like to help me test this that would be great.

SLIMM just loves ruining my ideas. Every since he mentioned that he plays with quickness on 0 to better see a contrast between sprinting and walking I've been doing so. It was a great move because now I'm seeing more animations of players slipping and putting their hands on the ground when they're trying to make quick cuts, but it drastically cuts down on the open court agility of ballhandlers, I'd rather not butcher the quickness rating of every player so I may have to use a slider. Ugh.

Anyway, feel free to point out glaring holes in my logic I need the criticism to fine tune this idea but so far it looks beautiful.
I would be willing to help test it out !
naquank23 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Advertisements - Register to remove
Old 04-13-2013, 06:00 PM   #306
Pro
 
bigtreydawg's Arena
 
OVR: 2
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: The Vic
Blog Entries: 1
Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

Quote:
Originally Posted by naquank23
I would be willing to help test it out !
Thanks

I was surprised when I found that taking this approach did not lead to more points in the paint. It led to more assists and more midrange jumpers because of all the pass outs to open shooters. It's the best drive and kick I have ever seen out of this game.

It also has also yielded more blocked shots because players with lower lay up ratings are getting to the hoop more effectively.

This is something important that I forgot to add:
Ball security (unfortunately) has no effect on sim stats for turnovers. So I feel safe lowering the ball security of all guards into the 30s and 20s. Now you will see really cool animations of a player driving and lifting his hands up like he got fouled while the ball bounces off of him and goes out of bounds. Hurray for more non steal turnovers.

What controls turnovers in the sim engine? I would really appreciate an answer to that question.

Last edited by bigtreydawg; 04-13-2013 at 06:11 PM.
bigtreydawg is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2013, 06:23 PM   #307
Rookie
 
OVR: 0
Join Date: Apr 2011
Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigtreydawg
Thanks

I was surprised when I found that taking this approach did not lead to more points in the paint. It led to more assists and more midrange jumpers because of all the pass outs to open shooters. It's the best drive and kick I have ever seen out of this game.

It also has also yielded more blocked shots because players with lower lay up ratings are getting to the hoop more effectively.

This is something important that I forgot to add:
Ball security (unfortunately) has no effect on sim stats for turnovers. So I feel safe lowering the ball security of all guards into the 30s and 20s. Now you will see really cool animations of a player driving and lifting his hands up like he got fouled while the ball bounces off of him and goes out of bounds. Hurray for more non steal turnovers.

What controls turnovers in the sim engine? I would really appreciate an answer to that question.
Well in one of my roster experiments i tried staring off at 99 for ball security and subtracting their turnovers from it to try to stop all the bad ball animations when dribbling and what do you want me to test?

Last edited by naquank23; 04-13-2013 at 06:23 PM. Reason: And what do you want me to test?
naquank23 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2013, 06:31 PM   #308
Pro
 
bigtreydawg's Arena
 
OVR: 2
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: The Vic
Blog Entries: 1
Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

Quote:
Originally Posted by naquank23
Well in one of my roster experiments i tried staring off at 99 for ball security and subtracting their turnovers from it to try to stop all the bad ball animations when dribbling and what do you want me to test?
I have a good grasp on what quickness does but strength for guards is really intriguing. Can you do a test on strength for a point guard (preferably a bad one) to see if he is able to "muscle" past his defender on a drive. Go to practice mode and do a bunch of layups with various settings for strength and see if you notice any difference.
bigtreydawg is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2013, 07:00 PM   #309
MVP
 
G0DZGiFT's Arena
 
OVR: 3
Join Date: Feb 2007
Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigtreydawg
SLIMM posted his sliders earlier in the thread (try page 17).

I'm going in raw with no sliders (minor alteration to defensive rebounds for humans and adjustments made for Allstar difficulty).

He is on PC while, I'm reppein team X-Box.

And I'm beginning to notice a discrepancy in the amount of threes I get versus what he gets. I'm curious to know what other differences we'll find between console and PC but I'll worry about that when it comes up.

Lol I'm repping the box too so lemme know your changes.
G0DZGiFT is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2013, 07:13 PM   #310
Pro
 
bigtreydawg's Arena
 
OVR: 2
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: The Vic
Blog Entries: 1
Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

Quote:
Originally Posted by G0DZGiFT
Lol I'm repping the box too so lemme know your changes.
To sliders? No changes except for the ones in the coefficient thread for all star difficulty. And to be honest I'm about to switch back to pro difficulty so I'm gonna have to adjust sliders in accordance with that difficulty setting.
bigtreydawg is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2013, 07:44 PM   #311
MVP
 
OVR: 12
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zola Predosa,Italy
Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigtreydawg
The easy answer would be to lower on ball defense but that causes these major problems:

Force Field - when on ball defense is 70 or lower an invisible bubble between you and your defender forms. The ball handler is making his dribble moves and the defender is mirroring him at a two foot distance that looks really strange.

Defensive pressure - I found this out when I was playing with the classic teams. The highest rated defender on the Utah jazz was Bryan Russell with 80. When I turned defensive pressure all the way up in the coach slider all the defenders except for Russell gave their man way to much room (especially Stockton and Hornececk on the perimeter).

Contact animations - the physics engine for 2k13 is down right awesome. It is on full display when you see Thabo guarding Kobe. It's beautiful to watch a high rated ball handler go up against a high rated defender. We rob ourselves of that when on ball defense is lowered into 70. Contact animations do not initialize and the guy driving to the hoop is "stuck" on a guy that isn't really playing defense but is somehow managing to stop your progress.

So what I've done is drastically raise the ball handling for every guard and small forward on every team.

My rationale behind this is every guard in the NBA is a great ballhandler, Steve Blake would ball you up at a YMCA he deserves a 95 rating. Royal Ivey does not make waves in the NBA but he is still your first pick on your playground pick up game. He deserves a high rating.

My initially test run of this gave me good results but here is a major problem I ran into

The Mismatch mechanic - I had previously thought the game acknowledged mismatches by position if a guard is on a center then the play they would have called gets over written and the CPU posts up. Conversely if a center is on a guard then an ISO will be called .

However this is not the case, the mismatch mechanic and the switching on screens mechanic is statistics based. If the ballhandler has significantly higher handles than the on-ball defense of the man guarding him then the computer will Iso the mismatch. I found this out when I gave Jeff Foster an 85 in ball handling (I know, I'm dumb). Even though Foster had no touch tendency and very little shot tendencies, without fail, whenever he was subbed in the CPU insisted on a High Post ISO. Because I had all of his dribble moves at zilch he literally sprinted into his defender (no contact animation) until he was close enough to put up a bad shot.

Also most of you should be able to see instances of this in your Roster. Power Forwards with good handles like Garnett and Bosh occasionally end up in this situation. I had to turn play vision on to see this because MIA High (the play in the Heat's playbook) and a wing Iso are very similar but through play vision I could see that they were calling a 'quick ISO' for Bosh when they really shouldn't be. But because his Handles were much higher than the perimeter D of Reggie Evans the CPU declared it a mismatch.

I'm still debating what I want to do with power forwards and Centers that aren't good ball handlers but I'm definetly going to take more of a letter grade approach to on ball d. Meaning if Reggie Evans is a D defender on the perimeter then he get a 68 not a 35.

Another problem is there are various little factors that contribute to how well a player can get past his defender. Strength quickness and Speed. If anyone would like to help me test this that would be great.

SLIMM just loves ruining my ideas. Every since he mentioned that he plays with quickness on 0 to better see a contrast between sprinting and walking I've been doing so. It was a great move because now I'm seeing more animations of players slipping and putting their hands on the ground when they're trying to make quick cuts, but it drastically cuts down on the open court agility of ballhandlers, I'd rather not butcher the quickness rating of every player so I may have to use a slider. Ugh.

Anyway, feel free to point out glaring holes in my logic I need the criticism to fine tune this idea but so far it looks beautiful.
Nobody can "ruin" your discovers right now because you're completely right.
I discovered these things with 2k11 but I've never had time and probably the necessary language knowledge to write a post like your.

The "mismatches ratings" are:
ballhandling-onball defense
offensive post ability-defensive post ability(a difference of 50 points "unlock" an immediate offensive low post mismatch with double team)
strength(the same as above but does not determinate the need of a double team)

My suggestion are:
-on ball defense never under 60 because the low rated players are "perceived" like shadows by the cpu and this leads to a lot of unreal passes in the paint.
-on ball defense not above 85.This because a 99 on ball defender can bump every moves in this game!In real life Thabo can bump(and not always...) one or two times a player ike Kobe,but who can stop in a one on one situation Westbrook or TP???

Speed and quickness are not a factors in this case.
Immediate high post iso for Bosh,Odom,Garnett... are called because their onball ratings are higher I think 20-30 points than onball defense rating of their defending big man.
__________________
Boots..........To ASSES!!!!!!
Serra11 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Advertisements - Register to remove
Old 04-13-2013, 07:48 PM   #312
MVP
 
OVR: 12
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zola Predosa,Italy
Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigtreydawg
When the touch tendencies aren't identical, what happens? Say you lowered Tim or raised Parker but kept inside at 100 what happens then?
Parker 0 inside shot,85 mid.
Tim 90 inside,0 mid.
Both 90 touches.
__________________
Boots..........To ASSES!!!!!!
Serra11 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Reply


« Previous Thread | Next Thread »

« Operation Sports Forums > Basketball > NBA 2K Basketball > NBA 2K Last Gen > NBA 2K Last Gen Sliders »


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:14 PM.

Top -