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Old 04-17-2013, 08:09 PM   #481
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

Here are is some first half gameplay video from my 90-91 roster after implementing the settings we have been working on.

To avoid a bunch of who has what rating I included a video of the player ratings and tendencies for both teams starters.

This is all CPU vs. CPU on PRO, Simulation, 12 minute qtrs.

Coach Profiles are the same except;
TEMPO - Bulls=75, Pistons=50
DP=50
HD=30
FB=0
COG=75
RP=50
DT=50
ZU=0
BD=0
INSIDE=0
CLOSE=0
MID=50
3PT=50
ATB=1



Video #1 - 1st quarter highlights(I lost most of the replays in gametrack for some reason) and Part one of straight gameplay from the 2nd quarter.



Video #2 - 2nd Quarter gamplay part 2 and game stats including shot charts.



Video #3 - Player Ratings for Detroit and Chicago Starters.



Going out for a couple hours, will be back to answer any questions later tonight.
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Old 04-17-2013, 08:14 PM   #482
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

Quote:
Originally Posted by mango_prom
This is exactly why I'm all OCD about 2k fixing playcalling for 2k14. Freelancing will most likely stay broken...maybe it's simply too much to ask for improved AI.
Looking at other genres, it's not like 2k is years behind everybody else. Strategy games are still relying on the same old money scripts to keep the CPU competitive, and I won't even get started about other sport games...playing NHL/FIFA/PES against the AI for more than 5 minutes is pretty much impossible for me at this point.

But if we at least had a playcalling system that works, we could fake our way around it. I've posted this idea before...if we had multiple layers of play distribution, most problems with tendencies wouldn't matter at all.

Something like this:
a) Global touches frequency -> Only by using a single touches value
b) Individual play selection -> Use a percentage system to fine tune play styles. So we could assign individual values to different play types. If a player runs a PnR in 70% of his touches in real life, we could recreate this exact number.

That way, even if freelancing tendencies remain flawed, 2k could improve gameplay hugely by designing plays that look like real basketball and giving us the right tools to make teams run them at the right ratio.
...but looking at the crappy default playbooks in 2k13 as well as roster updates, what could you possibly expect?

I've done the same kind of hotspot testing you did, but with the pick/iso/screen stuff...had pretty much the same kind of results. Seems kinda pointless to tweak all these numbers at this point...
Tweaking numbers

Contextual dribble moves

Why won't they stand still.

All of this had me wondering. How does this game play with no edits?

No Hotspots, no freelance tendencies. 50 on the sliders, 50 on the coach profile, simple drive, no triple threat, no setup dribble. No drive the lane. No attack no pass out.

Just edits to attributes and shot tendencies.

The result of that is a mess.

And from that mess you can see that this game is hard coded with everything in it. When they're done running around like headless chickens they stand far enough away from each other to resemble organization.

I started removing things that were clearly broken. First was help defense down to 10. This made them stay with their man.

Next I dropped attack the basket to 0. Even when the defense was standing stock still their man ran in front o them for no reason and got an easy lay up. Now that problem is minimized (not gone).

After a few more horrible possessions I saw the passing back and forth between the lane. I lowered inside and close to 10. Now the problem of cutting to the basket is gone. (One game sample size) and the offense is more content with midrange jumpers and 3s.

I then raise defensive pressure to 75 to put some pressure on shooters. Now we have more driving and since I kept the attribute edits there ball handling skills are allowing them to get past 80 plus on ball defenders. I then stopped stopped the test because it was too awful to look at.

But the work we have put in is making a difference in the way this game plays.

What I learned from that mess is that even with gutted tendencies on some level the game is capable of doing every move in the game. The players can stand in any position on the court. And they can cut seemingly at random.

What we're doing is telling a player what we want to see more of. There will be instances where the players go off script. But finding what makes a player do a certain thing can be attributed to something in most cases.

SLIMM, much like expecting them not to do a crossover when we lower the crossover to 0. You can't expect them to stand completely still in the offense.
However in giving 100 to 3pt left you successfully made him stand at the 3pt line and you kept him from the low block.

A combination of multiple hotspot spot up locations makes a player stand in the areas he should be in. when you add this to 4 other players with the correct spot up locations things work out 90% of the time. (And given the chaos I just watched, we should be thankful it's that high).
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Old 04-17-2013, 09:31 PM   #483
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

I gave to Ibaka 90 in mid shot tendency and after every pick set he pops to mid range area...tomorrow I'll test it again(I really hope it would be the way to go to "unlock" the pop tendency).
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Old 04-18-2013, 12:07 AM   #484
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

I don't mean to toot my own horn guys but *toot toot*

For as much as im wrong on this thread (which is way too much) I'm equally as brilliant.

On today's episode "too much of a good thing is a bad thing" we learn about attack and pass out.

This is not a ratio. This is not 'out of a 100' it is a frequency gage and it works like a charm.

Udonis Haslem (God bless him) I don't want him to do anything, I want him to rebound and defend. That is why his tendencies are practically a baron wasteland. So why is he holding up my offense by just holding the ball.

Pass out - it does a couple of things

1.) it makes you pass more
2.) in play calling it makes you pass sooner than you should if you have it set to 100. For my roster this means every point guard in the league is too itchy to get the ball out of his hands.
3.) if a two guard or a wing man (Lebron, Dwayne) has this tendency to high they will pass it to someone trying to set a pick for them (Bosh) simply because he is open.

Now for attack (I have to learn some moderation when it comes to this slider)

I'm a big Ol Spurs fan and I have that team playing really smart and fluid. I look forward to going back and editing them with all the new developments we found out in this thread. Tony Parker plays like a gad damn wiz kid. So I went to his tendencies to see what I did to make it work that way.

Turns out every point guard except Tony Parker has a pass tendency of 100 in my roster. Tony has 20 and he has an attack tendency of 80 (I clearly thought it was a ratio at the time of editing.

Previously in this thread I made the assertion that drive the lane made a ball handler follow the solid blue line instead of choosing the first passing option. Well I was wrong (shocker). Turns out attack makes you follow the solid blue line, (this often leads to a pick) and Tony Parker capitalized on every pick.

Attack

1.) it makes a ball handler super aggressive.
2.) if this tendency is at 100 it often leads to a broken play because that player is being super aggressive
3.) combine this with the ball handling edits we've made and enjoy the show.
4.) what is your dunk in traffic frequency set to?
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Old 04-18-2013, 12:22 AM   #485
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigtreydawg
I don't mean to toot my own horn guys but *toot toot*

For as much as im wrong on this thread (which is way too much) I'm equally as brilliant.

On today's episode "too much of a good thing is a bad thing" we learn about attack and pass out.

This is not a ratio. This is not 'out of a 100' it is a frequency gage and it works like a charm.

Udonis Haslem (God bless him) I don't want him to do anything, I want him to rebound and defend. That is why his tendencies are practically a baron wasteland. So why is he holding up my offense by just holding the ball.

Pass out - it does a couple of things

1.) it makes you pass more
2.) in play calling it makes you pass sooner than you should if you have it set to 100. For my roster this means every point guard in the league is too itchy to get the ball out of his hands.
3.) if a two guard or a wing man (Lebron, Dwayne) has this tendency to high they will pass it to someone trying to set a pick for them (Bosh) simply because he is open.

Now for attack (I have to learn some moderation when it comes to this slider)

I'm a big Ol Spurs fan and I have that team playing really smart and fluid. I look forward to going back and editing them with all the new developments we found out in this thread. Tony Parker plays like a gad damn wiz kid. So I went to his tendencies to see what I did to make it work that way.

Turns out every point guard except Tony Parker has a pass tendency of 100 in my roster. Tony has 20 and he has an attack tendency of 80 (I clearly thought it was a ratio at the time of editing.

Previously in this thread I made the assertion that drive the lane made a ball handler follow the solid blue line instead of choosing the first passing option. Well I was wrong (shocker). Turns out attack makes you follow the solid blue line, (this often leads to a pick) and Tony Parker capitalized on every pick.

Attack

1.) it makes a ball handler super aggressive.
2.) if this tendency is at 100 it often leads to a broken play because that player is being super aggressive
3.) combine this with the ball handling edits we've made and enjoy the show.
4.) what is your dunk in traffic frequency set to?
Sweet, I was just about to start looking into this.

With pass out at 100, and tempo high (75+), I was seeing players jump to catch a pass, then pass it off before landing.

I have a question about Fast Break @ 0. This makes the players fast break based off hustle ratings? If so that is awesome, but it leads to more questions.

How would you go about replicating "Showtime" type Lakers teams? Set all perimeter players to 99? What about the effect that has on stamina?

Also, what are you doing for Off Hand Dribble?
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Old 04-18-2013, 12:36 AM   #486
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

Quote:
Originally Posted by qpc123
Sweet, I was just about to start looking into this.

With pass out at 100, and tempo high (75+), I was seeing players jump to catch a pass, then pass it off before landing.

I have a question about Fast Break @ 0. This makes the players fast break based off hustle ratings? If so that is awesome, but it leads to more questions.

How would you go about replicating "Showtime" type Lakers teams? Set all perimeter players to 99? What about the effect that has on stamina?

Also, what are you doing for Off Hand Dribble?
Off ball handling I'm making it equal to or maybe a point or two lower for elite players. I drop it by ten for mediocre players.

Seriously what is your dunk frequency slider at?

I watched your videos and players seemed passive.

That is largely a playbook thing but for the lakers go with quick hitting plays. (Punch, 10 single) just to keep things in constant motion.

Edit: I was able to stop Duncan from running on the fastbreak by butchering his hustle rating. I think it may be the reason.

Last edited by bigtreydawg; 04-18-2013 at 12:39 AM.
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Old 04-18-2013, 12:36 AM   #487
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigtreydawg
I don't mean to toot my own horn guys but *toot toot*

For as much as im wrong on this thread (which is way too much) I'm equally as brilliant.

On today's episode "too much of a good thing is a bad thing" we learn about attack and pass out.

This is not a ratio. This is not 'out of a 100' it is a frequency gage and it works like a charm.

Udonis Haslem (God bless him) I don't want him to do anything, I want him to rebound and defend. That is why his tendencies are practically a baron wasteland. So why is he holding up my offense by just holding the ball.

Pass out - it does a couple of things

1.) it makes you pass more
2.) in play calling it makes you pass sooner than you should if you have it set to 100. For my roster this means every point guard in the league is too itchy to get the ball out of his hands.
3.) if a two guard or a wing man (Lebron, Dwayne) has this tendency to high they will pass it to someone trying to set a pick for them (Bosh) simply because he is open.

Now for attack (I have to learn some moderation when it comes to this slider)

I'm a big Ol Spurs fan and I have that team playing really smart and fluid. I look forward to going back and editing them with all the new developments we found out in this thread. Tony Parker plays like a gad damn wiz kid. So I went to his tendencies to see what I did to make it work that way.

Turns out every point guard except Tony Parker has a pass tendency of 100 in my roster. Tony has 20 and he has an attack tendency of 80 (I clearly thought it was a ratio at the time of editing.

Previously in this thread I made the assertion that drive the lane made a ball handler follow the solid blue line instead of choosing the first passing option. Well I was wrong (shocker). Turns out attack makes you follow the solid blue line, (this often leads to a pick) and Tony Parker capitalized on every pick.

Attack

1.) it makes a ball handler super aggressive.
2.) if this tendency is at 100 it often leads to a broken play because that player is being super aggressive
3.) combine this with the ball handling edits we've made and enjoy the show.
4.) what is your dunk in traffic frequency set to?
I'm going to try working your theory with my numbers and see what happens. For any PG/SG/SF, I will set the ATB Tendency at whatever their Inside Shot Tendency is and I will set the PO Tendency equal to the Passing Rating to see what happens. This will cap the ATB Tendency at around 75 and will give most PG's a PO Tendency in the 70's, also. Do you think that will be too high?
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Old 04-18-2013, 12:44 AM   #488
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigtreydawg
Off ball handling I'm making it equal to or maybe a point or two lower for elite players. I drop it by ten for mediocre players.

Seriously what is your dunk frequency slider at?

I watched your videos and players seemed passive.

That is largely a playbook thing but for the lakers go with quick hitting plays. (Punch, 10 single) just to keep things in constant motion.

Edit: I was able to stop Duncan from running on the fastbreak by butchering his hustle rating. I think it may be the reason.
It's at 50.

I pulled the "Inside Shot" Dunk slider back to 50 for a lot to see the effect.
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