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Old 04-18-2013, 10:44 PM   #521
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

Quote:
Originally Posted by slimm44
Please keep everything how it is but set his Strength and Low Post to 25 and see if the AI calls plays/FL post-up's for him at a similar rate to how they are now. I'm guessing that, in a 12 minute quarter game, the AI is still going to run the offense through Shaq.
Just ran a test with the 1st quarter. They ran the set plays at the same rate, more or less. However, he received 0 freelance post ups the entire quarter, despite who was guarding him (Longley, Rodman, Kerr).
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Old 04-18-2013, 10:46 PM   #522
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

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Originally Posted by Hyperballer21
Just ran a test with the 1st quarter. They ran the set plays at the same rate, more or less. However, he received 0 freelance post ups the entire quarter, despite who was guarding him (Longley, Rodman, Kerr).
Interesting. So the AI play calling isn't effected by strength/low post O but the Freelance situations are. I wonder what attributes (if any) effect PNR/ISO/Spot Up?
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Old 04-18-2013, 11:46 PM   #523
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

Quote:
Originally Posted by slimm44
Interesting. So the AI play calling isn't effected by strength/low post O but the Freelance situations are. I wonder what attributes (if any) effect PNR/ISO/Spot Up?
Not the answer I expected . . . Entire new set of variables. Does anyone want to write a letter to the developers lol
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Old 04-19-2013, 02:22 AM   #524
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

First Half Highlights of a CPUvCPU test I just ran.



Bulls ended up winning 94-89, which is pretty low scoring given the league average was around 106 ppg in '91. However, this is mostly due to a lack of FTA(I know, you're shocked, lol). FGA were with an acceptable range of team/league avg, but CHI only had 10 FTA and Philly had 18, these numbers should be in the mid to upper 20's.

Chicago Bulls at Philadelphia 76ers
1234Final
Chicago2521242494
Philadelphia1724262289
Top Performers
Chicago Bulls
Michael Jordan - 40 min, 41 pts, 8 reb, 4 ast, 20-29 FG
Scottie Pippen - 43 min, 16 pts, 10, reb, 9 ast, 7-20 FG
Philadelphia 76ers
Charles Barkley - 32 min, 29 pts, 7 reb, 10-19 FG
Armen Gilliam - 35 min, 18 pts, 6 reb, 6-8 FG
Team Stats Comparison
CHIPHI
FG Made-Att42-8536-81
3PT Made-Att1-31-3
FT Made-Att7-1016-18
Rebounds5037
Assists2310
Turnovers95
Steals36
Blocks30


Overall very pleased, still some minor annoyances but I doubt we eliminate all of them since doing would likely break something else.

I starting working on adding in the "pull up" jumper with mixed results. With it at 0 Pippen and Jordan were "probing" with the dribble too much IMO.

I gave them both 5.

Jordan - ATB=88, PO=68
Pippen - ATB=77, PO=65(after game I realized he still had his triple threat set to 75 which is way too high and leads to a lot of standing and pointless jab steps and could have been part of my problem)

Both players would pull when it looked they could have gotten to the rim, or taken 1-2 more dribbles before help D arrived. Jordan did this far less often than Pippen who took way too many 15-18 foot jumpers(mostly on PU's_).

One other observation that is more about realism than anything, IMO.

This was actually a test after a restart. In my first attempt, on one of the Bulls first couple possession, Jordan got the ball mid-post(left side of court), faced up, pump faked, one bounce left, spin to the right into a wide open lane, and finish with thunder dunk. It was awesome to watch.......

Except for the dunk.

I know that sounds dumb, but let me explain.

Off just two steps(one of which was essentially the "exit" of the spin move) Jordan rose up and dunked, with his head above the rim, his whole head. It was awesome it was not realistic, IMO. I know he he incredible hops, but this was just too much.

I thought I might work on finding a scale for realistic verticals, which involve a ton of testing and editing, but I was going to try.

So I took my '91 Jordan into, freestyle mode(under practice) so it is just MJ the ball and the basket.

No matter how hard I tried to sprint into a dunk, no matter which dunk type I tried to do, I could not come anywhere close to replicating what I just seen in a game.

At this point I figured I would check the sliders to see what if anything in there was holding me back for some reason, and there was, but it wasn't a slider setting.

It was because there are no sliders in freestyle practice. This may be common knowledge, but I had never really messed with freestyle practice mode.

Once I realized this, the clouds parted and I could see the light. I went to the game sliders and turned the Vertical slider to zero. That was the setting in the highlights I posted and as you can see, it did not seem to be an issue.

The only other changes I made were to the shot success sliders for the CPU. FG% was pretty bad in previous testing and this really the CPU FG%.
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Old 04-19-2013, 02:43 AM   #525
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

Quote:
Originally Posted by qpc123
First Half Highlights of a CPUvCPU test I just ran.



Bulls ended up winning 94-89, which is pretty low scoring given the league average was around 106 ppg in '91. However, this is mostly due to a lack of FTA(I know, you're shocked, lol). FGA were with an acceptable range of team/league avg, but CHI only had 10 FTA and Philly had 18, these numbers should be in the mid to upper 20's.

Chicago Bulls at Philadelphia 76ers
1234Final
Chicago2521242494
Philadelphia1724262289
Top Performers
Chicago Bulls
Michael Jordan - 40 min, 41 pts, 8 reb, 4 ast, 20-29 FG
Scottie Pippen - 43 min, 16 pts, 10, reb, 9 ast, 7-20 FG
Philadelphia 76ers
Charles Barkley - 32 min, 29 pts, 7 reb, 10-19 FG
Armen Gilliam - 35 min, 18 pts, 6 reb, 6-8 FG
Team Stats Comparison
CHIPHI
FG Made-Att42-8536-81
3PT Made-Att1-31-3
FT Made-Att7-1016-18
Rebounds5037
Assists2310
Turnovers95
Steals36
Blocks30


Overall very pleased, still some minor annoyances but I doubt we eliminate all of them since doing would likely break something else.

I starting working on adding in the "pull up" jumper with mixed results. With it at 0 Pippen and Jordan were "probing" with the dribble too much IMO.

I gave them both 5.

Jordan - ATB=88, PO=68
Pippen - ATB=77, PO=65(after game I realized he still had his triple threat set to 75 which is way too high and leads to a lot of standing and pointless jab steps and could have been part of my problem)

Both players would pull when it looked they could have gotten to the rim, or taken 1-2 more dribbles before help D arrived. Jordan did this far less often than Pippen who took way too many 15-18 foot jumpers(mostly on PU's_).

One other observation that is more about realism than anything, IMO.

This was actually a test after a restart. In my first attempt, on one of the Bulls first couple possession, Jordan got the ball mid-post(left side of court), faced up, pump faked, one bounce left, spin to the right into a wide open lane, and finish with thunder dunk. It was awesome to watch.......

Except for the dunk.

I know that sounds dumb, but let me explain.

Off just two steps(one of which was essentially the "exit" of the spin move) Jordan rose up and dunked, with his head above the rim, his whole head. It was awesome it was not realistic, IMO. I know he he incredible hops, but this was just too much.

I thought I might work on finding a scale for realistic verticals, which involve a ton of testing and editing, but I was going to try.

So I took my '91 Jordan into, freestyle mode(under practice) so it is just MJ the ball and the basket.

No matter how hard I tried to sprint into a dunk, no matter which dunk type I tried to do, I could not come anywhere close to replicating what I just seen in a game.

At this point I figured I would check the sliders to see what if anything in there was holding me back for some reason, and there was, but it wasn't a slider setting.

It was because there are no sliders in freestyle practice. This may be common knowledge, but I had never really messed with freestyle practice mode.

Once I realized this, the clouds parted and I could see the light. I went to the game sliders and turned the Vertical slider to zero. That was the setting in the highlights I posted and as you can see, it did not seem to be an issue.

The only other changes I made were to the shot success sliders for the CPU. FG% was pretty bad in previous testing and this really the CPU FG%.
Yo that gameplay is starting to look sexy.

You pointed out all the things I was going to mainly Pippen pulling up too much. You say that is happening with a pull up of 5?!?!

Wow my Dwayne Wade takes it all the way for the most part with his pull up at 30. When I get home Ill post some of the tendencies that pertain to pull so we can compare.

Otherwise I saw a lot of good stuff. There's always some iffy "aw man, why would you do that" decisions but I think we're really cutting down on those.

I like Jordan's pass to the 3pt center guy after the baseline drive. That is what I'm working on seeing more of. What do you have Jordan's drive right at?

Overall I'm loving the way this is shaping up. I can't wait to do these post game edits. Tim Duncan is gonna be a BEAST!!

Edit: I'm having trouble with circus dunks too. While it looks awesome I want to cut down on it. I don't want to take the option away from Lebron because I k is he is capable of that nonsense. I just want to it less without lowering the dunk frequency slider.

Oh, the reason why I asked you about it is having it even slightly lower drastic impacts their decision making when driving.

Last edited by bigtreydawg; 04-19-2013 at 02:51 AM.
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Old 04-19-2013, 03:18 AM   #526
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

MJ Drive right = 100. As does everyone else's.

My reasoning was when I had this lower, driving players would change direction at times when they had a clear path in the direction they were going.

This is purely speculation based off what I have seen while watching CPU v CPU games......

I do not think the "Drive Right" tendency has very much effect on which way a player decides to drive.

I think its more of a "change of direction" tendency. With it at 100, players still go with their off hand if driving that way and have a lane to the bucket.

Man, this is getting deep.

Essentially what we are doing is trying to teach a computer how to think like a basketball player. In order to do so certain options have to very limited or removed all together.

What I mean by think like a basketball player is...

In real life if MJ is going left and isn't impeded by the defense he has no thought of changing direction, he is already open.

Now lets say in the game MJ has 75 drive right(or change direction 25% of the time, once again speculation) and is driving left with an open lane. But the A.I. isn't think about the clear path to the basket, it's thinking I change direction 25% of the time and I have moved in my current direction for 3 straight dribbles. So on the 4th dribble you get a crossover(or other change of direction move).

I have a similar feeling about a lot of the tendencies as we have proven that most are hardcoded and will occur even a player has a tendency to do absolutely nothing.

This is why I have all the dribble penetration moves at 0. They just increase the odds of whatever the tendency is for. So if you turn up crossover and a player beats a guy without using it his CPU brain is saying "I haven't crossed over yet, better do it now."

One more thing I wanted to put out there in case anyone was unaware.

Post Shots:
There is tendency to shoot from the post, and tendencies for different shot types(hook, etc).

This seems pretty straight forward, but it has a couple quirks.

The post shot tendency is actually one of the easiest tendencies to figure out(for me at least).

What I did not know was that the shot types also effect the players tendency to shoot.

Example: Mark Eaton - Low Post Shot=25, Hook=100, everything else=0.

I assumed Eaton would shoot only hooks but not shoot them real often. WRONG. He shot a hook on every post catch, every time. Nobody wants that.
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Old 04-19-2013, 03:44 AM   #527
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

Quote:
Originally Posted by qpc123
MJ Drive right = 100. As does everyone else's.

My reasoning was when I had this lower, driving players would change direction at times when they had a clear path in the direction they were going.

This is purely speculation based off what I have seen while watching CPU v CPU games......

I do not think the "Drive Right" tendency has very much effect on which way a player decides to drive.

I think its more of a "change of direction" tendency. With it at 100, players still go with their off hand if driving that way and have a lane to the bucket.

Man, this is getting deep.

Essentially what we are doing is trying to teach a computer how to think like a basketball player. In order to do so certain options have to very limited or removed all together.

What I mean by think like a basketball player is...

In real life if MJ is going left and isn't impeded by the defense he has no thought of changing direction, he is already open.

Now lets say in the game MJ has 75 drive right(or change direction 25% of the time, once again speculation) and is driving left with an open lane. But the A.I. isn't think about the clear path to the basket, it's thinking I change direction 25% of the time and I have moved in my current direction for 3 straight dribbles. So on the 4th dribble you get a crossover(or other change of direction move).

I have a similar feeling about a lot of the tendencies as we have proven that most are hardcoded and will occur even a player has a tendency to do absolutely nothing.

This is why I have all the dribble penetration moves at 0. They just increase the odds of whatever the tendency is for. So if you turn up crossover and a player beats a guy without using it his CPU brain is saying "I haven't crossed over yet, better do it now."

One more thing I wanted to put out there in case anyone was unaware.

Post Shots:
There is tendency to shoot from the post, and tendencies for different shot types(hook, etc).

This seems pretty straight forward, but it has a couple quirks.

The post shot tendency is actually one of the easiest tendencies to figure out(for me at least).

What I did not know was that the shot types also effect the players tendency to shoot.

Example: Mark Eaton - Low Post Shot=25, Hook=100, everything else=0.

I assumed Eaton would shoot only hooks but not shoot them real often. WRONG. He shot a hook on every post catch, every time. Nobody wants that.
Good analysis. It's strange, at a certain point giving bad players a high tendency becomes a hindrance. It should be obvious looking back on all the mistakes we've made but its a surprise every time it happens.

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Old 04-19-2013, 04:11 AM   #528
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

What are you using for Help D coach slider? I have it at 30 but suspect it may be causing some of the unnecessary changes of direction.

Testing Pistons v Lakers.

Magic - drive right=50, Spin=100, simple drive=100

Thomas - drive right=50, Spin=100, simple drive=100

i am tracking each players drives noting, starting direction, moves used, result. I am also grading each one on a good, fair, poor, bad type scale.

Here are Isiah's 1st three drives;

1) drive right, pass off to open rodman=good
2) drive left, behind back(to right), spin(left), step back jumper(made)=fair. He had space driving left before the behind the back. Only got a fair since he hit the shot, otherwise=poor.
3)Drive right, Spin(left), bumps into magic(beaten right) and pick up dribble=bad, should have stayed with the right hand. He had no lane to attack either way, but the spin was right into the teeth of the defense.
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