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Old 04-26-2013, 05:18 PM   #729
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

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Originally Posted by bigtreydawg
Slimm44 posted this back on page 39.

I responded saying that this also explains the "why" aspect of someone driving now that we've determined Drive the Lane is an off ball tendency.

Believe me, I really want it to be an on ball tendency.

If you can give me any kind of proof that it is I will gladly rub it in Slimm's face.
No need to rub, we all in it together.

Quote:
@ bigtrey, I sent you a PM with these findings regarding the Pull Up Tendency, but I feel they're pretty conclusive (aside from a few variables). At least conclusive enough to post.

I think I have the Pull Up Tendency figured out. First, the data:

I watched CPU matches of Phil/Phil. Starting lineups were Holiday, Richardson, Turner, Young, Hawes.

The tendencies were as follows for every test:

Holiday 41 ins, 35 close, 50 mid, 32 3PT
Richardson 28 ins, 22 close, 28 mid, 71 3pt
Turner 34 ins, 40 close, 47 mid, 16 3pt
Young 70 ins, 40 close, 33 mid, 1 3pt
Hawes 45 ins, 42 close, 45 mid, 14 3pt

What were their DTL/Spot, PU/Pen, ATT/PO ratings?

Sliders were all 50 (unless specified) on pro mode. Coaching sliders? What were they at during the testing?

First test: ATB 0, PU 0, PO 0
Out of 20 possessions, there was 1 pull up jumper in mid-range before the last 5 seconds of the shot clock

Second test: ATB 0, PU 100, PO 0
Out of 20 possessions, there were 2 pull up jumpers in mid-range before the last 5 seconds of the shot clock.

Third test: ATB 100, PU 100, PO 100

Out of 20 possessions, there were 5 pull up jumpers in mid-range before the last 5 seconds of the shot clock.

Fourth test: ATB 100, PU 100, PO 0, OBD slider 0

Out of 20 possessions, there were 10 pull up jumpers in mid-range and one from 3PT land before the last 5 seconds of the shot clock.

Fifth test: ATB 100, PU 100, PO 0 OBD slider 50

Out of 20 possessions, there were 13 pull up jumpers in mid-range before the last 5 seconds of the shot clock.

1. Pull Up only works when the player has an attack the basket tendency above 0. I don't know if there are any "levels" but I know that, at 0, there were no pull up jumpers until the end of the shot clock. With ATB at 100 and PU at 100, there are pull ups galore. This combination allows the AI to VASTLY override the mid-range tendency given to a player. Yes PU only works when ATB is > 0, cause ATB tells the player whether to attack (try to score = shoot = lay = dunk) or PO at the end of the 'drive'. Drive/Spot -> Pull Up/Penetrate -> Attack/Pass.

2. Pull Up also works better when the Pass Out Tendency is low. I only tested 0's and 100's, but with PO at 100 there were a select few PU's but with PO at 0, there were SEVERAL. It works better with a low PO tendency cause a low PO to ATT ratio means more ATT at the end of the drive. More ATT means more shots, lays, dunks.

3. Having a high ATB tendency, a high PU tendency, and a low PO tendency is the best combination to get players to pull up off the drive. Drive/Spot -> Pull Up/Penetrate -> Attack/Pass.

4. I saw no PU's by PF or C. Only the PG, SG, and SF attempted a PU. For that matter, I saw no drives AT ALL by the PF or C, and that's with the ATB tendency at 100 for all players. Would depend on the player Drive/Spot, PU/Penetrate ratings.

5. The on-ball defense slider does not effect how often a player pulls up. With the slider at 0 and the slider at 50 I got the same results.

6. All but one PU jumper I saw was in mid-range. The other was a 3. This animation is triggered primarily in Mid-Range. Probably has to do with how 2k programmed 'drives' and their starting places. Too close to the 3 line imo, needs to be in between Half and 3, that way you could replicate pull up Js from 3 off the drive. As it is right now, PU only happen in mids cause the initial drive begins at the 3 line. Thats why it needs to be moved back imo again.

7. The two players who took the most PU's were Turner and Richardson, both of whom have very low mid-range tendencies. Turner is at 47, JRich at 28 but with a 71 3pt, initial drive start location and other factors could play into why JRich is pulling (tend locations not being exactly as the image of the court)

8. This testing was done with no ISO plays and the ISO FL tendency at 0. I don't know if the results would apply to those situations. I would think ISO would be the best test for DTL/Spot, Pull/Pen, Att/PO and TT/TTS.

9. There were very few PU jumpers in FB action, regardless of tendencies or sliders. Most of all (if not all) came in FL or during set plays.

10. Some drives were initiated with no pick and some were with a pick. PU jumpers, with high ATB/PU and low PO Tendencies occurred during each situation.

Conclusion: On PRO mode, having a high DTL Tendency (to initiate the drive sequence), a low PO Tendency (a lot of PO's happen at the begging of the drive, this may change if OBD slider is lower or once we find threshold for ball handling/OBD rating), and a high PU Tendency (which is primarily triggered in the Mid-Range, between the FT line and 3pt line). Bolded what tells me its an On-ball rating, one cannot initiate a drive without the ball.

This animation was not triggered one time in 100 possessions by the PF or C. It solely occurred when the PG/SG/SF had the ball. PU tendencies not high enough for the bigs?

There were 34 total PU jumpers in 100 possessions and only 1 of them were 3's. More info needed to tell whats really happening. What plays being run, more ratings/tends, etc.

I don't know if the "fancy shot" animations effect this or not. This was STRICTLY testing for PU animations, not fadeaways/floaters/stepbacks, etc. PU means to pull up for the shot (not just PU jumper), so any shot off the dribble is considered a PU (even leaners, floaters, stepbacks). When PU is triggered, the CPU then looks at shot type tends (leaners, fades, etc... which all have their weighted ratios amongst each other) to find out what to do in that situation.

My next test is going to be Triple Threat/Triple Threat Shot. I probably won't be able to post any findings until tomorrow, at best. How are you going to test TT/TTS?




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Old 04-26-2013, 05:28 PM   #730
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

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Originally Posted by bigtreydawg
I hate to get off on the wrong because its good seeing you in this thread but I have to disagree with you again.

Having attack/pass based out of 100 is not necessary and even detrimental to a player like Rondo who attacks A LOT but passes out the majority of the time. ATT does not tell the player to drive, DTL does. ATT/PO tells the player whether to try and score or pass out.

If you set him to 10 attack and 90 pass out you stifle his ability to drive. Incorrect sir, it would give him a 1:9 ratio of trying to score to passing out of the 'drive'.

Edit: to extrapolate, if you want to create a Kobe Bryant type of players who passes out of his jump shot you would give them a pull up of 45-50, set their attack to 50 and pass out to 90. Now you have a player that attacks then pulls up and then pass when help D collapses on him.45-50 just means he has about an even ratio of PU or Penetrating further (ie continuing the drive, that was initiated by the DTL rating) and with that 50att/90po rating he has almost a 2:1 chance to pass out.
replied within quote.
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Old 04-26-2013, 05:30 PM   #731
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

I forgot he flubbed his conclusion, lol. He meant attack, go to page 39 to see he corrected himself. This thread is kind of rediculously long but a good starting point (we actually come together and test things correctly) is page 35 or so. If you have free time and coffee start there.
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Old 04-26-2013, 05:39 PM   #732
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

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Originally Posted by qpc123
I don't remember the exact settings and they have changed since then.

I noticed Doc Rivers just standing and watching at the time. My D awareness ratings are based off slimm's scale but I may have to adjust them. The higher scoring and pace between now and then results in a lot of players in the 50's and that may be too low to get them to react to a situation like the one with Pippen. He wasn't in bad position, he just didn't react to Pippen's attack, at all.
Doc's position is perfect:he recognized that the threat was not MJ behind the 3pt line but Pip in the high post.
Maybe he did not react because low def awarness or low steal/block tendencies.
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Old 04-26-2013, 06:24 PM   #733
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

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Originally Posted by Serra11
Doc's position is perfect:he recognized that the threat was not MJ behind the 3pt line but Pip in the high post.
Maybe he did not react because low def awarness or low steal/block tendencies.
I'm gonna work with def. awareness first. Defensive rating last season was around 3 points higher on average as opposed to 90-91 so I'll probably bump certain player up 3-5 points.
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Old 04-26-2013, 06:30 PM   #734
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

Again Drive/Spot -> Pull Up/Penetrate -> Attack/Pass.

I fundamentally disagree with this line of reasoning. Here is the convoluted way I see it

Drive/spot up - off ball tendency determining whether a player goes to the basket or spots up.

Pull-up/penetrate - these are controlled by a players attack tendency. In Slimm's test you'll see that with a higher attack there were more pull ups. The converse of pulling up is penetrating. This is the on ball tendency that makes a player drive. Attack determines how often he will do either of those two things.

Attack/pass out - self explanatory but not out of a ratio. They are frequency gages with huge negative implications for the game if set incorrectly. I gave Lebron a 90 in pass out to compliment his 70 attack and everytime Bosh came to set a screen for him Lebron passed it to Bosh. His Pass out was too high.
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Old 04-26-2013, 06:47 PM   #735
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

@ Jwill - What's up, man? Long time no chat. Good to see you here.

What I know is this: what I posted throughout this thread was in no way based on opinion. It was based on data that I observed and measured. I also gave the variables that I changed during the testing process.

As for the DTL tendencies, I know I changed them from 0 to 100 several times during the testing process, but I can't look at when/how it effected the tests because I deleted the notes that I typed as I watched. What I remember seeing, on PC, was with DTL at 100, players would NOT do anything that resembled a drive while being the ball handler. With ATB at 100, they would drive the lane like a maniac, over and over. Also, with DTL at 100, multiple players were running to the rim and standing in the restricted area at a time. It was common to see 2-3 players doing this at a time, which is also why I posted that I saw it as an off-ball tendency. This was with Crash the Boards at 0, so it couldn't have been attributed to that.

Again, the findings I posted were not based on any assumptions or opinions.

Update on real-life situation: I still have a job, but had to lay off roughly half my company on Tuesday. Not good times.
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Old 04-26-2013, 07:10 PM   #736
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

Quote:
Originally Posted by slimm44
@ Jwill - What's up, man? Long time no chat. Good to see you here.

What I know is this: what I posted throughout this thread was in no way based on opinion. It was based on data that I observed and measured. I also gave the variables that I changed during the testing process.

As for the DTL tendencies, I know I changed them from 0 to 100 several times during the testing process, but I can't look at when/how it effected the tests because I deleted the notes that I typed as I watched. What I remember seeing, on PC, was with DTL at 100, players would NOT do anything that resembled a drive while being the ball handler. With ATB at 100, they would drive the lane like a maniac, over and over. Also, with DTL at 100, multiple players were running to the rim and standing in the restricted area at a time. It was common to see 2-3 players doing this at a time, which is also why I posted that I saw it as an off-ball tendency. This was with Crash the Boards at 0, so it couldn't have been attributed to that.

Again, the findings I posted were not based on any assumptions or opinions.

Update on real-life situation: I still have a job, but had to lay off roughly half my company on Tuesday. Not good times.
So I just want to confirm that drive the lane tendency/spot up is a off all ball tendency correct? Also I'm guessing this would also apply to guys setting a pick on wether they go to the rim after the pick or pop out for a open shot?
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