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Old 04-27-2013, 01:33 PM   #777
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

Quote:
Originally Posted by slimm44
QPC - Please run that test again with both teams set at CPU, not Coach Mode. See if the same thing happens. When I was testing DTL/ATB/PA/PU, it was with both teams set to CPU.
CPU vs CPU, 91 Bulls v 91 Bulls, Pro, Sim.

All players have freelance tendencies of: Spot Up=100, all others=0.

Drive the Lane/Pull Up
Paxson=63/77
Jordan=95/74
Pippen=65/63
Grant=48/32
Cartwright=37/28



It is not 'Drive the Lane' that creates the half court motion.

This team's playbook had one play, a 'cutter' play and no-one has a tendency to run those plays so everything is freelance.

The player movement is caused by either a pass or a movement of the ball handler.

What leads to an overabundance of movement is an overabundance of freelance tendencies and multiple hot spot locations for those freelance tendencies.

For example lets say you have a good PG and PF. Whenever there is not a play called and the PG has the ball you would like to see them do a pick and roll/pop/whatever.

Using the method we have here then the PG's FL tendencies would be something like; Use Pick=50, Spot Up=100 and the PF would be: Set Pick=50, Spot Up=100.

The PG's Spot Up Hot Spots are on the left and right wing, but his main pick and roll hot spot is the top of the key. The PF's Spot Up Hot Spots are on the baseline left and right and his ideal pick location is also the top of the key.

If the PG brings the ball up the floor on the right side and crosses to the left with a dribble, he passes through his main pick and roll area. This causes the PF to leave his spot up area on the baseline and go to the top of the key.

So, if the PG does not use the pick for whatever reason or passes to another player with no use pick tendency the PF is going to go back his spot up location.

This may not seem to crazy but this is just one possible interaction between 2 of the 5 offensive players on the court.

When players have even the slightest tendency to do basically everything, set a pick, use a pick, spot up, post up, etc. and to do so in may areas of the court. It results in mass confusion as the players have no communication with each other(if that makes sense).

Take it from average players perspective if the roster has him with way too many tendencies and location.

He is thinking:
Ok I'm gonna spot up here on the baseline.
Oh the PG has the ball and he likes picks set for him there and I like to set pick there, I'll go set a pick.
Wait he passed to the SF and I don't set picks for him, better go back my spot up location.
Hey now the center is where I like to spot up, maybe I'll post up instead.
Oh the PG has the ball again I should go set him a pick.
Dang it he passed again, I'll go set a screen.
Oh hey someone is setting a screen for me.
Oh look my favorite spot up location is open again.

When you limit the choices in freelance and the places for actions to occur then less action occurs if no play is called.
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Old 04-27-2013, 01:36 PM   #778
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigtreydawg
Hmmm, that's abstract but what I do know is that they are just driving for the sake of driving with no real desire to score, they break up plays and their too relentless on the break, I can't imagine why I would incorporate this slider back into the mix.

Do you see a benefit in having it? I can achieve the same results with an attack tendency and adjustments to triple threat.
To me the benefit of using DTL is that it interacts and allows for use of the pull up tendency.

With DTL @ 0 I was unable to use Pull Up above 1 for any player who I wanted to attack the rim if they had the chance.
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Old 04-27-2013, 02:59 PM   #779
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

Quote:
Originally Posted by qpc123
CPU vs CPU, 91 Bulls v 91 Bulls, Pro, Sim.

All players have freelance tendencies of: Spot Up=100, all others=0.

Drive the Lane/Pull Up
Paxson=63/77
Jordan=95/74
Pippen=65/63
Grant=48/32
Cartwright=37/28



It is not 'Drive the Lane' that creates the half court motion.

This team's playbook had one play, a 'cutter' play and no-one has a tendency to run those plays so everything is freelance.

The player movement is caused by either a pass or a movement of the ball handler.

What leads to an overabundance of movement is an overabundance of freelance tendencies and multiple hot spot locations for those freelance tendencies.

For example lets say you have a good PG and PF. Whenever there is not a play called and the PG has the ball you would like to see them do a pick and roll/pop/whatever.

Using the method we have here then the PG's FL tendencies would be something like; Use Pick=50, Spot Up=100 and the PF would be: Set Pick=50, Spot Up=100.

The PG's Spot Up Hot Spots are on the left and right wing, but his main pick and roll hot spot is the top of the key. The PF's Spot Up Hot Spots are on the baseline left and right and his ideal pick location is also the top of the key.

If the PG brings the ball up the floor on the right side and crosses to the left with a dribble, he passes through his main pick and roll area. This causes the PF to leave his spot up area on the baseline and go to the top of the key.

So, if the PG does not use the pick for whatever reason or passes to another player with no use pick tendency the PF is going to go back his spot up location.

This may not seem to crazy but this is just one possible interaction between 2 of the 5 offensive players on the court.

When players have even the slightest tendency to do basically everything, set a pick, use a pick, spot up, post up, etc. and to do so in may areas of the court. It results in mass confusion as the players have no communication with each other(if that makes sense).

Take it from average players perspective if the roster has him with way too many tendencies and location.

He is thinking:
Ok I'm gonna spot up here on the baseline.
Oh the PG has the ball and he likes picks set for him there and I like to set pick there, I'll go set a pick.
Wait he passed to the SF and I don't set picks for him, better go back my spot up location.
Hey now the center is where I like to spot up, maybe I'll post up instead.
Oh the PG has the ball again I should go set him a pick.
Dang it he passed again, I'll go set a screen.
Oh hey someone is setting a screen for me.
Oh look my favorite spot up location is open again.

When you limit the choices in freelance and the places for actions to occur then less action occurs if no play is called.
The players are really "calm" during the offense...they follow strictly their freelance instructions.
What was the Offensive Tempo and Attack the basket for both teams?????
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Last edited by Serra11; 04-27-2013 at 03:53 PM.
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Old 04-27-2013, 03:33 PM   #780
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

I almost forgot I have to amend the front page (again).

We still think its an off ball tendency correct? If not we should look into Serra11 pick and roll issue a little more. He says 75-80 midrange tendency is what makes a player "pop" with drive the lane at 0 I think raising drive the lane will make him roll more with no other adjustments to shot tendencies.
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Old 04-27-2013, 03:42 PM   #781
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

Quote:
Originally Posted by qpc123
To me the benefit of using DTL is that it interacts and allows for use of the pull up tendency.

With DTL @ 0 I was unable to use Pull Up above 1 for any player who I wanted to attack the rim if they had the chance.
I see, and sadly I agree. That is definetly a good thing. The drive the lane tendencies you posted for testing purposes, were those the same ones that gave you trouble with play calling in your previous video? I believe I've seen your attack tendencies before they were pretty high as well. It is not unreasonable to think that scaling both of those back will fix the problem.
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Old 04-27-2013, 05:29 PM   #782
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

DISCLAIMER: Notes I have written down, no particular order of things, very helter skelter, started this morning and with kids + chores + wife + bro in town = hectic, but at-least he is good at 2k so we can ball.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When a player catches the ball, he looks to these first: Spot Up - Triple Threat - Post Up - DTL (I believe in this order as well)

So when a player catches a pass it will look to SU first (if #s are not there to support a shot) will go to next process -> TT. If #s are there to support a shot off the SU they will (think RAY ALLEN, KORVER) high shot loc tends + hotspots when the catch is made.

Once a drive is initiated by DTL it looks like this: DTL -> Pull/Penetrate -> Att/PO

Shot ratings may come into play when CPU is deciding what type of shot to take (whether a lay or a jumper) this is the only way I can see how some layups are initiated at the 3 line. (I know y'all have seen those long lay animations now) so why are those being triggered there instead of a jumper?

DTL -> PU/PEN (more pen) -> PU/PEN (more pen) -> PU/PEN (pull) -> ATT/PO -> PO -> PASS TYPE TEND

DTL -> PU/PEN (more pen) -> PU/PEN (more pen)-(pen stopped by DEF) -> PU (could go post here too - post would be a branch window here) -> ATT/PO -> ATT -> SHOT TYPE TEND

During said drive, pull/pen is constantly being 'refreshed' to decide what to do, either pull (shoot) or continue penetration. Shot Loc tends, ATT/PO ratio needs to favor ATT, off/def rating spreads all come into play, maybe even OA/DA spread.

When said drive is complete, it looks at ATT/PO to decide how to finish said drive. If ATT is selected, CPU will look for shot to do (goes to shot type tends [runner, fade, etc], finish move tends [if close enough to basket]), if PO is selected a pass will occur (looks at pass tends [flashy, alley]).

In order to get a player to pull (shoot) right out of a catch, his DTL/SU must be low, also his shot loc tends need to be high for that area, plus a hotspot.

Freelance/Hotspots determine where/what players do when no play is called/broke, etc.

ATT/PO has no bearing on aggressiveness of drives as it only kicks in after the drive/penetration has completed, whether that completion is due to having an openness to pull-up (PU/Pen), defense stopping pen (forcing att/po), or from driving/pen deep into paint or crossing into a hotspot/high shot tend location (initiating the pull/shot).

For testing, all coaching sliders should be at 50, so that there is no alteration of any player tends. All gameplay sliders (tends) should be at 50 as well again for no alterations from player tends. Also I believe testing only ISO plays where a player catches the pass at the 3 line to begin the ISO would be best to determine SU/TT/Post/DTL, Pull/pen, ATT/PO tendencies. This way all other players would be cleared and no FL tends should kick in.

Things to do today, but either late tonight, early tomorrow or monday I will break down the qpc chi vs lal video, there are some things that happen that are clear as day in regards to how the CPU reacts when catching the ball (TT, Post, DTL).
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Old 04-27-2013, 06:23 PM   #783
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonWilliams55
DISCLAIMER: Notes I have written down, no particular order of things, very helter skelter, started this morning and with kids + chores + wife + bro in town = hectic, but at-least he is good at 2k so we can ball.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When a player catches the ball, he looks to these first: Spot Up - Triple Threat - Post Up - DTL (I believe in this order as well)

So when a player catches a pass it will look to SU first (if #s are not there to support a shot) will go to next process -> TT. If #s are there to support a shot off the SU they will (think RAY ALLEN, KORVER) high shot loc tends + hotspots when the catch is made.

Once a drive is initiated by DTL it looks like this: DTL -> Pull/Penetrate -> Att/PO

Shot ratings may come into play when CPU is deciding what type of shot to take (whether a lay or a jumper) this is the only way I can see how some layups are initiated at the 3 line. (I know y'all have seen those long lay animations now) so why are those being triggered there instead of a jumper?

DTL -> PU/PEN (more pen) -> PU/PEN (more pen) -> PU/PEN (pull) -> ATT/PO -> PO -> PASS TYPE TEND

DTL -> PU/PEN (more pen) -> PU/PEN (more pen)-(pen stopped by DEF) -> PU (could go post here too - post would be a branch window here) -> ATT/PO -> ATT -> SHOT TYPE TEND

During said drive, pull/pen is constantly being 'refreshed' to decide what to do, either pull (shoot) or continue penetration. Shot Loc tends, ATT/PO ratio needs to favor ATT, off/def rating spreads all come into play, maybe even OA/DA spread.

When said drive is complete, it looks at ATT/PO to decide how to finish said drive. If ATT is selected, CPU will look for shot to do (goes to shot type tends [runner, fade, etc], finish move tends [if close enough to basket]), if PO is selected a pass will occur (looks at pass tends [flashy, alley]).

In order to get a player to pull (shoot) right out of a catch, his DTL/SU must be low, also his shot loc tends need to be high for that area, plus a hotspot.

Freelance/Hotspots determine where/what players do when no play is called/broke, etc.

ATT/PO has no bearing on aggressiveness of drives as it only kicks in after the drive/penetration has completed, whether that completion is due to having an openness to pull-up (PU/Pen), defense stopping pen (forcing att/po), or from driving/pen deep into paint or crossing into a hotspot/high shot tend location (initiating the pull/shot).

For testing, all coaching sliders should be at 50, so that there is no alteration of any player tends. All gameplay sliders (tends) should be at 50 as well again for no alterations from player tends. Also I believe testing only ISO plays where a player catches the pass at the 3 line to begin the ISO would be best to determine SU/TT/Post/DTL, Pull/pen, ATT/PO tendencies. This way all other players would be cleared and no FL tends should kick in.

Things to do today, but either late tonight, early tomorrow or monday I will break down the qpc chi vs lal video, there are some things that happen that are clear as day in regards to how the CPU reacts when catching the ball (TT, Post, DTL).
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Old 04-27-2013, 06:25 PM   #784
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonWilliams55
DISCLAIMER: Notes I have written down, no particular order of things, very helter skelter, started this morning and with kids + chores + wife + bro in town = hectic, but at-least he is good at 2k so we can ball.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When a player catches the ball, he looks to these first: Spot Up - Triple Threat - Post Up - DTL (I believe in this order as well)

So when a player catches a pass it will look to SU first (if #s are not there to support a shot) will go to next process -> TT. If #s are there to support a shot off the SU they will (think RAY ALLEN, KORVER) high shot loc tends + hotspots when the catch is made.

Once a drive is initiated by DTL it looks like this: DTL -> Pull/Penetrate -> Att/PO

Shot ratings may come into play when CPU is deciding what type of shot to take (whether a lay or a jumper) this is the only way I can see how some layups are initiated at the 3 line. (I know y'all have seen those long lay animations now) so why are those being triggered there instead of a jumper?

DTL -> PU/PEN (more pen) -> PU/PEN (more pen) -> PU/PEN (pull) -> ATT/PO -> PO -> PASS TYPE TEND

DTL -> PU/PEN (more pen) -> PU/PEN (more pen)-(pen stopped by DEF) -> PU (could go post here too - post would be a branch window here) -> ATT/PO -> ATT -> SHOT TYPE TEND

During said drive, pull/pen is constantly being 'refreshed' to decide what to do, either pull (shoot) or continue penetration. Shot Loc tends, ATT/PO ratio needs to favor ATT, off/def rating spreads all come into play, maybe even OA/DA spread.

When said drive is complete, it looks at ATT/PO to decide how to finish said drive. If ATT is selected, CPU will look for shot to do (goes to shot type tends [runner, fade, etc], finish move tends [if close enough to basket]), if PO is selected a pass will occur (looks at pass tends [flashy, alley]).

In order to get a player to pull (shoot) right out of a catch, his DTL/SU must be low, also his shot loc tends need to be high for that area, plus a hotspot.

Freelance/Hotspots determine where/what players do when no play is called/broke, etc.

ATT/PO has no bearing on aggressiveness of drives as it only kicks in after the drive/penetration has completed, whether that completion is due to having an openness to pull-up (PU/Pen), defense stopping pen (forcing att/po), or from driving/pen deep into paint or crossing into a hotspot/high shot tend location (initiating the pull/shot).

For testing, all coaching sliders should be at 50, so that there is no alteration of any player tends. All gameplay sliders (tends) should be at 50 as well again for no alterations from player tends. Also I believe testing only ISO plays where a player catches the pass at the 3 line to begin the ISO would be best to determine SU/TT/Post/DTL, Pull/pen, ATT/PO tendencies. This way all other players would be cleared and no FL tends should kick in.

Things to do today, but either late tonight, early tomorrow or monday I will break down the qpc chi vs lal video, there are some things that happen that are clear as day in regards to how the CPU reacts when catching the ball (TT, Post, DTL).
I agree with you about drive the lane. But I have been playing with that tendency on zero and players have no issue attacking diligently when the attack tendency is in play.

I like your idea of ISO testing to determine tendency related features. I will use that to see if I can establish a post player, like an Andre Miller who doesn't call for the ball in the paint.
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