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Old 04-27-2013, 10:17 PM   #785
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

Quote:
Originally Posted by slimm44
jasonwilliams, you are smarter than me and you have my vote for president.
I highly, highly doubt I am, I usually look like this -><- throughout the day due to the small farm I take care of, kids, wife, etc... etc... and as for the vote, just write in your favorite cartoon character, since, if voting mattered it would be illegal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigtreydawg
I agree with you about drive the lane. But I have been playing with that tendency on zero and players have no issue attacking diligently when the attack tendency is in play.

I like your idea of ISO testing to determine tendency related features. I will use that to see if I can establish a post player, like an Andre Miller who doesn't call for the ball in the paint.
According to 2k, attack only means to finish a drive (again whether a shot/lay/dunk), so lets start using drive(ing) in reference to someone 'attacking' (driving).

So in the bolded part of the quote above, what were the coach prof. settings? Specifically the "attack the basket" slider, as I believe that 'that' slider doesn't refer to only Attack (in att/po), but DTL+PEN+ATT, maybe DTL+ATT (or some combo) as the slider says something to the effect of "how often the team will look to drive". Now if you meant that you had the global slider @ 0, what were the player DTL ratings? I need more info:

Coaching sliders
Global sliders
Are plays being run during the testing?
How are they attacking or should I say driving? If SU/DTL is 0, then they have a 100 for SU, but yet they are driving... is a TT move initiated before the drive? Is a post move initiated before the drive?
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Old 04-27-2013, 10:26 PM   #786
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

Also I feel 2K's tendencies look like this mapped out graphically and when we mess with 1, it messes with a bunch of others.







Without knowing how they are interconnected, we are pulling strings without seeing the big picture and unfortunately its been like this a long time and 2k has never publicly ever tried to relay any info to the consumer about how it interconnects. I can't be mad at them for not though as I am sure some other company would love to know (looking at you EA).
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Last edited by JasonWilliams55; 04-27-2013 at 10:35 PM.
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Old 04-27-2013, 10:39 PM   #787
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonWilliams55
I highly, highly doubt I am, I usually look like this -><- throughout the day due to the small farm I take care of, kids, wife, etc... etc... and as for the vote, just write in your favorite cartoon character, since, if voting mattered it would be illegal.



According to 2k, attack only means to finish a drive (again whether a shot/lay/dunk), so lets start using drive(ing) in reference to someone 'attacking' (driving).

So in the bolded part of the quote above, what were the coach prof. settings? Specifically the "attack the basket" slider, as I believe that 'that' slider doesn't refer to only Attack (in att/po), but DTL+PEN+ATT, maybe DTL+ATT (or some combo) as the slider says something to the effect of "how often the team will look to drive". Now if you meant that you had the global slider @ 0, what were the player DTL ratings? I need more info:

Coaching sliders
Global sliders
Are plays being run during the testing?
How are they attacking or should I say driving? If SU/DTL is 0, then they have a 100 for SU, but yet they are driving... is a TT move initiated before the drive? Is a post move initiated before the drive?
For the last month I've had all my players drive the lane tendency at 0.

The attack the basket in the coaching profile I keep at 1 (I was gonna PM you about what that slider did specifically, I think it's another drive the lane slider).

TRiple threat has fluctuated due to testing but throughout the entire ordeal players attack in multiple situations (off a jab step, catching & go, pump fake, plays, freelance) all based on attack tendency.

I've read the definition and I know it should be after the drive is initiated but they definetly initiate the drive on their own volition. I don't know if its their inside shot rating but I previously believed and to an extent still do believe that penetration is the reason why they attack.

Please see for yourself. Or Serra11 and QPC can confirm since they've had similar experience in that regard.

And I don't use any global sliders that pertain to attributes or tendencies except take post shot which is at 100.
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Old 04-27-2013, 10:59 PM   #788
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

That is the exact way I was seeing it.

I've had to make charts like that for computer classes, they suck.

Just an example of 'who knows how/why' this is happening.

Set a teams starters to have only Spot Up for freelance and give them just 1 or 2(3 at most) Spot Up Hot Spots.

Now to cut down on all the other action and test the freelance, also set the players DTL to zero. You can also set ATT to 0 and PO to 100 but it really doesn't matter.

Take away all the play types so the CPU can only freelance and run a game CPU v CPU with that team.

You'll see that for the most part the players will stand in there in hot spots unless thy get the ball or the ball handler moves around the court and shifts their spots(this is why them need a couple).

Quit that game and run the same test, except give a player 25 for Post Up in freelance.

Players now move around a lot more and will even set off ball screens for the player who has the post up tendency.

Why does giving someone a post up tendency cause other players to set them screens?

They are normally post to post screens to help the player get open and are not 'bad' basketball plays.

But, if I am trying to run a '1 in 4 out' set I do not want an outside player going into the post to set screens when he has no obvious tendency to do so, he only has spot up and his spot up hot spots are all in 3pt range.

I may do some videos on this later, but I am burnt right now.
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Old 04-28-2013, 01:36 AM   #789
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

Quote:
Originally Posted by qpc123
That is the exact way I was seeing it.

I've had to make charts like that for computer classes, they suck.

Just an example of 'who knows how/why' this is happening.

Set a teams starters to have only Spot Up for freelance and give them just 1 or 2(3 at most) Spot Up Hot Spots.

Now to cut down on all the other action and test the freelance, also set the players DTL to zero. You can also set ATT to 0 and PO to 100 but it really doesn't matter.

Take away all the play types so the CPU can only freelance and run a game CPU v CPU with that team.

You'll see that for the most part the players will stand in there in hot spots unless thy get the ball or the ball handler moves around the court and shifts their spots(this is why them need a couple).

Quit that game and run the same test, except give a player 25 for Post Up in freelance.

Players now move around a lot more and will even set off ball screens for the player who has the post up tendency.

Why does giving someone a post up tendency cause other players to set them screens?

They are normally post to post screens to help the player get open and are not 'bad' basketball plays.

But, if I am trying to run a '1 in 4 out' set I do not want an outside player going into the post to set screens when he has no obvious tendency to do so, he only has spot up and his spot up hot spots are all in 3pt range.

I may do some videos on this later, but I am burnt right now.
Wow 25 and Perimeter players set cross post screens, yeesh!

I have not yet begun to test but I venture forth the notion that copious amount of isolations for star players is going to be the solution to shutting down some of the dumb stuff.
The problem I have with limiting a player to 3 hot spots is what, what happens when 1 of the other 12 players has those hot spots? Do they stand next to each other?

Honestly I would rather see that then Ray Allen running along the base line to get to his other corner hotspot.

So much to be done.
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Old 04-28-2013, 01:47 AM   #790
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigtreydawg
Wow 25 and Perimeter players set cross post screens, yeesh!

I have not yet begun to test but I venture forth the notion that copious amount of isolations for star players is going to be the solution to shutting down some of the dumb stuff.
The problem I have with limiting a player to 3 hot spots is what, what happens when 1 of the other 12 players has those hot spots? Do they stand next to each other?

Honestly I would rather see that then Ray Allen running along the base line to get to his other corner hotspot.

So much to be done.
If you want to attempt some sibilance of an 'offensive system' when the players freelance I think you have to assign certain positions to certain roles. I.E. the all the point guards have spot up hot spots in the corner and at the top of the key. If you want to get these players mid range shots from the wings there are a ton of plays that can achieve that better than having to find the right combo of tendencies.
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Old 04-28-2013, 06:18 AM   #791
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

Regarding hotspots:

1. I think no perimeter players should have mid range locations assigned to them, as that really messes up the floor spacing.

2. A player's hotspot location should be the same on both sides. When a play breaks down you don't want them cutting over the lane just to get to their desired position.

3. I just thought of this while writing, and I haven't tested it, but if you have perimeter players that should only spread the floor in freelance you could try giving them 20 in each 3pt hotspot location to make them just go to an open spot on the floor and not distract the player with the ball.
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Old 04-28-2013, 09:02 AM   #792
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Re: Tempo-Freelance-RunPlays

Quote:
Originally Posted by qpc123
CPU vs CPU, 91 Bulls v 91 Bulls, Pro, Sim.

All players have freelance tendencies of: Spot Up=100, all others=0.

Drive the Lane/Pull Up
Paxson=63/77
Jordan=95/74
Pippen=65/63
Grant=48/32
Cartwright=37/28



It is not 'Drive the Lane' that creates the half court motion.

This team's playbook had one play, a 'cutter' play and no-one has a tendency to run those plays so everything is freelance.

The player movement is caused by either a pass or a movement of the ball handler.

What leads to an overabundance of movement is an overabundance of freelance tendencies and multiple hot spot locations for those freelance tendencies.

For example lets say you have a good PG and PF. Whenever there is not a play called and the PG has the ball you would like to see them do a pick and roll/pop/whatever.

Using the method we have here then the PG's FL tendencies would be something like; Use Pick=50, Spot Up=100 and the PF would be: Set Pick=50, Spot Up=100.

The PG's Spot Up Hot Spots are on the left and right wing, but his main pick and roll hot spot is the top of the key. The PF's Spot Up Hot Spots are on the baseline left and right and his ideal pick location is also the top of the key.

If the PG brings the ball up the floor on the right side and crosses to the left with a dribble, he passes through his main pick and roll area. This causes the PF to leave his spot up area on the baseline and go to the top of the key.

So, if the PG does not use the pick for whatever reason or passes to another player with no use pick tendency the PF is going to go back his spot up location.

This may not seem to crazy but this is just one possible interaction between 2 of the 5 offensive players on the court.

When players have even the slightest tendency to do basically everything, set a pick, use a pick, spot up, post up, etc. and to do so in may areas of the court. It results in mass confusion as the players have no communication with each other(if that makes sense).

Take it from average players perspective if the roster has him with way too many tendencies and location.

He is thinking:
Ok I'm gonna spot up here on the baseline.
Oh the PG has the ball and he likes picks set for him there and I like to set pick there, I'll go set a pick.
Wait he passed to the SF and I don't set picks for him, better go back my spot up location.
Hey now the center is where I like to spot up, maybe I'll post up instead.
Oh the PG has the ball again I should go set him a pick.
Dang it he passed again, I'll go set a screen.
Oh hey someone is setting a screen for me.
Oh look my favorite spot up location is open again.

When you limit the choices in freelance and the places for actions to occur then less action occurs if no play is called.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serra11
The players are really "calm" during the offense...they follow strictly their freelance instructions.
What was the Offensive Tempo and Attack the basket for both teams?????
Bump

I re-asked because I'm thinking right now that offensive tempo and shot locations coach profiles could affect floor-spacing.
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Last edited by Serra11; 04-28-2013 at 09:26 AM.
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