2K's engine

[Court_vision]

Is 2K's engine not allowed to be debated?

I go to sleep and my thread is locked?

Are we not allowed to comment on the benefits of a new engine?

Those guys jumping in and defending it at every.single.chance...are actually holding the series back.

Irony.

[nolan273]

Re: 2K's engine

I think it got a little too heated for the Mods. Good topic for discussion, but some people took it a little too personal, I think.

[t_h_e_growth]

Re: 2K's engine

no you arent allowed to do that.

2k stans think the game is flawless. theres nothing you can tell them thats wrong with the game without them bashing you back because you pointed out a flaw of their almighty 2k basketball.

[23]

Re: 2K's engine

Actually there is a long thread on 2k's engine so yes it is

That wasnt the problem, and 2k's engine wasn't being debated as much as there was alot of bashing and arguing and throwing out intepretations of what was said.

That said it has already been said to start another thread freely and lets give it another go.

[23]

Re: 2K's engine

no you arent allowed to do that.

2k stans think the game is flawless. theres nothing you can tell them thats wrong with the game without them bashing you back because you pointed out a flaw of their almighty 2k basketball.

btw, guys, if the engine for 2k will be debated and discussed in here civilly then these kinds of posts cannot be the main crux of the ideas thrown out there or the topic will have to take rest... after that posters will start getting infractions for stirring up bait

[Bornindamecca]

Re: 2K's engine

btw, guys, if the engine for 2k will be debated and discussed in here civilly then these kinds of posts cannot be the main crux of the ideas thrown out there or the topic will have to take rest... after that posters will start getting infractions for stirring up bait

Good post, KDRE. If you don't agree with me, you're a fanboy. If you like a game, you're a "stan". Yes, a psychopathic, girlfriend killing imitator who writes obsessive letters to his hero.

What is that? Both companies put out two highly rated but flawed basketball games. Neither is perfect, neither is terrible. If you can't discuss the differences without namecalling and bashing then you really need to step back, look inward, and find out the real problem, which I'm sure goes a little deeper than game engines.


Especially since most people on here don't know what a game engine is, lol.

[Stumbleweed]

Re: 2K's engine

Ha, I know what a game engine is, and ripped my definition in that thread almost word-for-word from Wikipedia while adding some other things like court dimensions, footplanting, etc. that are basketball-specific but are definitely part of the engine. For argument's sake, here's that definition:

"A game engine is a software system designed for the creation and development of video games. There are many game engines that are designed to work on video game consoles and desktop operating systems such as Linux, Mac OS X, and Microsoft Windows. The core functionality typically provided by a game engine includes a rendering engine (“renderer”) for 2D or 3D graphics, a physics engine or collision detection (and collision response), sound, scripting, animation, artificial intelligence, networking, streaming, memory management, threading, and a scene graph. The process of game development is frequently economized by in large part reusing the same game engine to create different games."

My definition:

"Engine as I'm using it means 'basic gameplay mechanics including but not limited to player movement, footplanting, clipping/collision detection, animation chaining, physical dimensions of the court'.... y'know, the stuff that makes the game what it is. AI is included in that also, but in the case of sports games, they often claim to have "revolutionary new AI", so I'll treat that as something that can be changed from year-to-year more easily."

So if we want to get as semantic as possible (which is entirely unnecessary):

The core functionality of the game (which is created via the game engine) includes all of the things that I mentioned in my definition. And all of those things are areas where 2K can use some major revision/improvement (of course IMO.. my opinion is not gospel). Hence, the suggestion from many people here (myself included) that implementing a new engine might solve some of the core gameplay issues that have plagued the series since well before the jump to 360/PS3.

[Bornindamecca]

Re: 2K's engine

I checked the wiki too. I don't believe in shooting from the hip unless I'm thoroughly educated on the subject.

All that you posted totally misses the point though.

If the game engine provided satisfactory footplanting and/or player movement in 2k8, then the problems with player movement and/or footplanting in 2k9 cannot be attributed to a dated engine.

The problems with physics, collisions and scripts can be.

AI in any other context would normally be in the discussion, but the mistakes they made with the AI was error in both tendencies and decision making, not an inescapable flaw in the engine that the AI is built upon.

[Stumbleweed]

Re: 2K's engine

2K didn't provide satisfactory footplanting OR collision detection and never has, which I attribute to the engine simply not doing those things very well.

2K9 was a step back in a significant way due to the crappy player movement and unnecessary extra animations (bad transitions cause sliding), and I said that was because they piled a bunch of new animations on top of the old engine (which is consistent with Mike Wang's opinion on the matter). The conclusion to be drawn from that is either: a) a new engine is needed to properly take advantage of all the gorgeous new animations or b) they should've left the added animations that didn't chain properly on the cutting room floor since those issues were less prominent in 2K8. It still comes down to "keep the same engine and add animations" or "change the engine to allow growth".

Also, physics is a HUGE part of the clipping and collision issues... that is clearly attributable to the game engine. Those issues also contribute to the crappy movement, as players have no weight and can turn on a dime without taking steps, etc., which is where a lot of those stupid-looking jerky sequences come from. It's all related. Like the original post in the other thread said, Mike was just saying that continually putting a new coat of paint (animations, player models, features) onto a dated engine is what is causing a lot of the issues with the game and why it still feels very much the same as it did 3-4 years ago... I have no reason to doubt that in the least, and I'm sure he's happy to have a development house that has the resources to make wholesale changes instead of just patching things up for each release. Granted, some of that isn't 2K's fault because they're under TT's umbrella...

[DC]

Re: 2K's engine

Those guys jumping in and defending it at every.single.chance...are actually holding the series back.

I have been saying this for the longest. I make a suggestion as to how they can IMPROVE the series, and people tell me to shutup because they have the best game out.

So I guess Kobe shouldn't work on his game in the offseason since he is the best right? I hate the logic and I hate how quickly they feel the need to defend the game. If you don't think a feature needs to be added just keep quiet

[Bornindamecca]

Re: 2K's engine

2K didn't provide satisfactory footplanting OR collision detection and never has, which I attribute to the engine simply not doing those things very well.

They've gone on record as saying that they can add footplanting, but that it took away from the fluidity of the game, so a balance of strict and loose footplanting was the compromise.

2K9 was a step back in a significant way due to the crappy player movement and unnecessary extra animations (bad transitions cause sliding), and I said that was because they piled a bunch of new animations on top of the old engine

1. Mike Wang wasn't part of these new animations being put onto the old engine, since he had already left when this dev cycle started.

2. We need proof on this matter. That proof has to say without equivocation that this system can take only so many animations, and that CH2k8 movement cannot be achieved with this many animations on this engine.

Also, physics is a HUGE part of the clipping and collision issues... that is clearly attributable to the game engine.

You'll get no argument from me here. Thing is, NBA Live has clipping and collision issues. 2k9's major problem(just look through this board) is the AI/tendencies. Guys like Neon make changes and the game plays TOTALLY differently on the same engine. That's my point. If you want to have an intelligent discussion on the engine of the game, don't blend in matters that have nothing to do with it.

I've seen you complain--rightfully so-- about not being able to rock people to sleep and control the left to right hand control of the ball. That has nothing to do with the engine. They can fix that right now on the same engine.


My issue certainly isn't with discussing a new physics engine. In fact, I started one such thread at the beginning of this 2k9 season. My issue is with blending in other issues and watering down that discussion. A new physics engine would revolutionize videogame basketball, and Live cannot claim to have done that. It just has different problems.

Now if the claim is that Live's physics engine has the foundation to have revolutionary collision, weight, physics and a lack of clipping, then my answer to that is show and prove. Right now they are just two different games with different sorts of problems. In 2k9's case, clipping is not chief amongst those problems. The worst clipping, which comes on defense, seems to occur because poorly written scripts override the physics. Still, this is not what most complaint threads are about.

If 2k9's players moved/controlled like they did in CHoops and the AI had the new improvements without the insane basket cutting, inside shots and cheating on D, many people wouldn't have jumped ship. 2k needs to simplify some of it's cause and effect like it did in Choops, like they are doing in Live.


A new physics engine is a different discussion.

[Stumbleweed]

Re: 2K's engine

...Except that the physics engine is part of the game engine (thanks, Wikipedia!)... so not exactly a separate discussion.

And I guess I'm of the opinion that clipping is a huge problem in 2K9 but that people don't notice it as much because it's been a problem in 2K games for YEARS and is due to some part of the engine. There is nothing worse in the game than having a pass go through 3 guys on the way to the hoop (usually on the CPU lead pass, exacerbating THAT problem)... and that happens all the time. Pause the game on any single play and watch the replay of all the arms going through bodies, the ball being sucked into hands, players' bodies combining into a heap with 4 arms, obvious blocks being negated by lack of collision detection, etc. -- these ARE engine problems, and they're big ones that significantly affect gameplay.

Live/NCAA aren't perfect in that regard (they're not perfect in footplanting either), but both are much better than 2K9, and I can't help but to think that having a true next-gen engine built from the ground up back in 06 had something to do with it. The payoffs from that decision are finally starting to show and I think 2010 will be the deciding factor in the "port vs. rebuild" argument that was so big when the 360/PS3 first came around... if Live does something revolutionary like a true physics engine or something along those lines while 2K puts out another game with these same issues, I'll sadly be putting the series to bed, and I'm definitely not the only one of that mindset.

There are lots of pissed-off people on the 2K Forums... WAY more than a previous release... it's pretty clear that people in general aren't as happy with 2K9 as they were previous games. Whether it's just the need for MAJOR overhauls of the AI/tendencies like Neon1 provided or something deeper (both are VERY applicable this year IMO), the game simply didn't perform to expectations and took steps backwards in various areas, including basic online functionality. On a more basic level, people shouldn't feel that they have to spend weeks and weeks of their time changing everything to get the game to play right... that's not necessarily an engine criticism, but it reflects on the attention to detail and drive to perfect the game that seemed to be lacking this year... from the fan reaction, it seems clear that they released a sub-par product that has alienated a lot of their loyal fanbase. I don't want 2K basketball to turn into Madden, basically... and I think it's heading that way. Lack of innovation is a bitch.

[Court_vision]

Re: 2K's engine

I am really dissapointed that people got personal with Beluba in my other thread...

IMO his comments were fine. 2K has been 'window dressing' for a while now...same engine with little bits and pieces added on / a sugar coating.

Same sliding issues.

Same spacing issues.

No footplanting...no 'next gen' movement.

They missed a golden opportunity to really go up a level when they decided to port over the old system engine.

[Stumbleweed]

Re: 2K's engine

And the problem now is that TT probably doesn't have the resources to throw at a game franchise that doesn't make them a ton of money. Even if they wanted to tear it down and do a new engine, I don't think that's possible with TT's financial situation. It doesn't make any sense for the parent company financially because 2K9 garnered a larger market share than 2K8 without the benefit of a new engine... why spend all that money and time (and risk the chance of a disaster like Live 07) if the game sells anyway?

Sadly I don't think we're going to see a very good NBA 2K10.. just got that feeling. I hope they surprise me. But right now, I'm WAY more excited about what EA will be doing with their 2010 crop of games.

[Goffs]

Re: 2K's engine

meh at this point i really dont care anymore :P