Time to Have that Talk....

[Sovartus]

I'm a little confused about this game this year.... Here is what I'm talking about. The computer seems to be unstoppable. I played a game this morning on All Star with simulation sliders and at halftime, it was 75 to 37. The cpu was shooting 65% and had over 20 more points in the paint than I did.

(yeah, I know... "you suck!" "sounds like you need to practice!" "swallow your pride and lower the difficulty" " change the sliders!" blah, blah, blah, blah... did I miss any?)

Now that I got that out of the way.... let me explain... I have visited 2K and spent 3 days with development team each time so I do know 2K fairly well and am friends with the guys who make the game....

I don't like to change the sliders because when you play online, you can't change them and considering the fact that I play a lot online, I want the same experience.

I find that the cpu can score in the paint at will, ALWAYS seems to get a majority of the offensive rebounds, makes some pretty impossible shots, and has a tendency to try to run the score up at all costs with no mercy. (calling a timeout when you score ONE BASKET during their 20 to 2 run)

This all leaves me rather frustrated and ready to make the trip to Gamestop, dust off 2K11 or Live 10 for that matter. There just doesn't seem to be much logic to playing the cpu these days and it is rather heartbreaking. My love affair with 2K is on rocky ground and her and I might be seperating for a few months if we can't solve our problems.

What am I missing? Any advice from the sane, intelligent community members is most appreciated. Please, keep it objective and have some substance to your comments if you don't mind. I'm not looking for trolls, bashers, or childish remarks to plague this thread. It would be nice to have a serious objective discussion involving tips, strategies, and solutions to some of the most common 2K12 issues we have all faced.

By the way, I consider myself to be a gamer who enjoys playing the game as realisically as possible so I'm not really interested in doing anything that takes advantage of the programming or flaws in the AI in any way....

Thanks in advance OS'ers.....

[stillfeelme]

Re: Time to Have that Talk....

All I can do is nod in agreement. I have played 95% of all of my games on All-star level. The CPU to me is not really capable of beating a good user unless they put in some of the of these advantages for the CPU. You can win but the CPU has certain advantages if you play enough of the games you will start to see it in different areas and when they show up wow man it just takes the realistic aspect of the game away. I have come to conclusion that 2K didn't make the game hard and realistic at the same time on this level. IMO you must edit the roster to try to balance certain things out, or perhaps drop down to a lower level. I know this but I am wating to see what the patch brings to decide which roster I will use because guys here are dedicated in making good rosters.

I will say if you watch some of the replays of some of the rebounding you will see some of the "scripting". I sometimes see my CPU controlled player stop and not attempt to go for rebound even if they have position, your AI controlled teammates do not box out. The CPU is in perfect position to get the rebound as soon as the shot is released usually three guys all at the same spot. Rebounding is not "live" and the ball comes off the rim at the same place where the CPU goes to in the paint. Rebounding has no randomness to it which is part of the reason you can't get offensive boards.

The CPU point guard up and under post moves is IMO cheese programming lol. I don't have another way of saying it but you either have to lower the tendency yourself or deal with it. I actually think the CPU is programmed to take the best shot which is the right thing but the problem is when you contest the shot the letter grade is still high probably about a B+ B- maybe a C+. To see every CPU player using it mostly point guards using the move tells you that the tendency is wrong and must be edited to bring it back in to normal level.

[ecworldwide]

Re: Time to Have that Talk....

I agree i play on sim/custom sliders on superstar and i have to say i had to do some major tweaking to make the game playable vs. the cpu.

[alabamarob]

Re: Time to Have that Talk....

I agree with what you both are saying about the Offensive rebounding. As soon as the shot is released, the cpu will run to the spot where the rebound is going. I have seen the CPU stand on the baseline as soon as the shot is released, because it knows the rebound is going to bounce over the backboard.

The up and unders are extremely unrealistic for the guards, and the CPU big men doing iso motion moves, they don't have the skills to do, is just as offensive. Hopefully the tendencies will be patched. However, I have found a couple of ways to combat the up and unders, to a certain extent.

One way is to stand directly in front of the offensive player, and put your hands up by holding the right stick away from the offensive player and towards the goal. This has significantly cut down on the number of shooting fouls called agaisnt me defending up and unders. When you hold the right stick towards the offensive player when crowding them on up and unders you will get a high number of foul calls, but when you hold the right stick away from the offensive player and crowd him you won't get as many.

The second way is to give the offensive player a couple of feet of space, and put your hands up by holding the right stick towards the offensive player. This space will cut down on the fouls, and also allow you catch the offensive player at the end of the up and under animation. By catching the up and under at the end of the shot animation, you can trigger a shot contest animation at a decent rate.

I play on HOF 12 min quarters. The only slider I have altered is the 3 point slider. Moved that from 50 to 47 for user and CPU. In my last 10 games or so against the CPU, it has not shot 50 percent.

With all that being said, I still have not figured out how to keep the CPU from getting fast break points, nor prevent offensive rebounding put backs. I give up about 40 points a game on put backs, and fast break points. My defenders jog back on defense, and every CPU player finishes on fast breaks like Tony Parker or a young Vince Carter.

I am going to wait until after the patch to make my final call on games versus the CPU. However, a 12 min game on HOF against a good user is still as realistic and addictive as any game I have ever played.

[youvalss]

Re: Time to Have that Talk....

I think that all this happens, because ever since 2K11 2K has gone a bit too far trying to create a basketball simulation. Next time you're at 2K's offices, tell them that all these issues (AKA the CPU is perfect and the user sucks - even if he/she's trying to make the same plays) - have nothing to do with simulation. I feel that the whole perception of simulation has really gone wild. If 2K is trying to mimic the real NBA, they're not not really going in the right direction, in my opinion.

Forcing you to play smart and slow - yes. Creating a game that mimics the NBA 100% - not really.

[SIZEqueen]

I think the obvious answer is since you're friends with the developers and go there on occasion, maybe you should do what any other person would do and try talking with them.

If I had a friend that worked for 2k, let alone several, I'd be up their butt about the problems they let go. I'd also ask them when the patch is coming. I'd ask them what might be included in the patches. You know, stuff that friends would talk about normally only I'd be at a huge advantage due to my friends' current employer.

That's if I had friends working there, or if I could actually visit the dev team at their place of employ.

[Sovartus]

Re: Time to Have that Talk....

I think the obvious answer is since you're friends with the developers and go there on occasion, maybe you should do what any other person would do and try talking with them.

If I had a friend that worked for 2k, let alone several, I'd be up their butt about the problems they let go. I'd also ask them when the patch is coming. I'd ask them what might be included in the patches. You know, stuff that friends would talk about normally only I'd be at a huge advantage due to my friends' current employer.

That's if I had friends working there, or if I could actually visit the dev team at their place of employ.

That's why I have a relationship with some of these guys, I don't do a lot of the things you are talking about. It's about respecting their work and remaining a fan of the franchise. I'm no different than any of you. Thanks for your input though. So far everyone is responding with intelligence.

[RogerBlack]

Re: Time to Have that Talk....

That's why I have a relationship with some of these guys, I don't do a lot of the things you are talking about. It's about respecting their work and remaining a fan of the franchise. I'm no different than any of you. Thanks for your input though. So far everyone is responding with intelligence.

2K12 is a decent game.
But it could be MUCH better in certain aspects, imo.

So this post is disturbing.
Because it sounds like these 2K developers DO NOT like hearing any 'constructive criticism'.

If so, this is exactly WHY major parts of 2k12 gameplay are broken.

Because 'fans' never critique the final product that hits the shelf.
They just cheer & rave. Blindly.

Leaving it up to anonymous gamers to point out the major flaws that the 2K Developers & Q/A Testers missed... on message boards like this.

Hopefully, the 2K Developers actaully read thru some of these posts and address the issues.
Because your approach won't ever yield any results.

Just saying.

[SIZEqueen]

Re: Time to Have that Talk....

That's why I have a relationship with some of these guys, I don't do a lot of the things you are talking about. It's about respecting their work and remaining a fan of the franchise. I'm no different than any of you. Thanks for your input though. So far everyone is responding with intelligence.

I have a friend who's worked for EA for some time now. We talk about just about every game on the market including titles he has worked on. When in development there are obvious limitations as to what he can say, and I don't ask. When he offers, then I'll talk.

The respect I show him as a person is obviously included in his profession but there's no real off limit topics save, as I mentioned, things he may be working on that he quite literally isn't allowed to talk about. He has said on more than one occasion that he appreciates input when it's a game title that I'm familiar with and more to the point, a title that which I know the programming parameters.

It's pretty much the general consensus that Elite was bad. He knows it. His colleagues know it. His employers know it. It's also the opinion that Madden is getting stale and could use a few touch ups. He knows that, and concedes that also. My point - if it's an ethics problem you have with talking to your friends about their job, don't you think it's a little awkward to publicly bash a game your friends work on rather than speak with them? I'm sure your friends are aware of OS, and since it's fairly common for avid sports gamers to frequent these boards I'm quite certain they think you visit OS also.

In my case I find it's better to be upfront. Programmers can't produce gold all the time. My friend knows it, your friends know it. They know it better than anyone. They live it. It's possible a conversation with them could lead to something very positive. Possibly similar to Czar. Or maybe nothing will come of it. I'd almost guarantee they'd like some input though. If my friend programmed 2k and we didn't talk about it, the pink elephant in the room would be more than we could handle.

[spankdatazz22]

Re: Time to Have that Talk....

I don't like to change the sliders because when you play online, you can't change them and considering the fact that I play a lot online, I want the same experience.

This sort of stuck out to me. First, I agree with your feelings about how the game plays at times on the higher difficulty levels. With 2K11 I felt comfortable playing on All-Star/SIM, only tweaking the fatigue and shooting sliders. It's pretty well documented that 2K12 flat-out cheats or plays unfairly at times on the higher difficulty settings. With 2K11 I'd see that only on Superstar/HoF.

But, I don't get your reasoning behind not wanting to change the sliders/your way of playing. In my experience the game plays very differently online than it does offline, primarily because most of the people online choose to play somewhat out of control if you're playing randoms. Imo 2K12 is significantly different from 2K11. One thing I found is that I could get away with playing a mostly freestyle game in 2K11; 2K12 seems less forgiving when playing that way. Last year I didn't feel much of a need to practice running plays; this year is the opposite as I've spent a ton of time in practice mode.

Many people have found playing on Pro is less frustrating than playing on All-Star and above and I'd agree with them. I've had nothing but good/great games since moving to Pro and making a few tweaks. But it seems some feel they're long-time 2K gamers that don't feel they should have to change, whether it's picking up the game day one and immediately jumping to HoF (despite not knowing the changes to the playcalling system, changes to movement, etc.) or feel that if they adjust the sliders in any way they're "cheating" the AI. I would just say: be open to change. I've said this repeatedly - the same guys people worshipped in the past for their work on 2K11 or Live 10 are the same ones that made 2K12. I don't think they up and forgot what they were doing overnight. They certainly didn't make the game easier/more casual gamer friendly. Imo the "hardcore" community constantly say they want SIM, but it seems they only want SIM up to a certain degree. To me the 2K devs have gone beyond what any other sports game has in terms of offering varying difficulty levels, and the ability to adjust slider settings on so many aspects of the gameplay - only to see some people say they don't feel like they should have to change anything and that it's the game that's wrong, not the gamer.

But if you're at the point where you think Live 10 is a viable option given all the issues that game had... well, don't know what to say.

[SIZEqueen]

Re: Time to Have that Talk....

But if you're at the point where you think Live 10 is a viable option given all the issues that game had... well, don't know what to say.

Agreed 100%. If you're at that point then I'd really suggest telling your friends. They're almost entitled to know if things are this bad.

[UnbelievablyRAW]

Re: Time to Have that Talk....

The cheating the AI does makes the game unplayable.

-They get every offensive rebound
-they make every contact layup
-they block every inside shot
-they can phase through your body while doing the up and under animation
-they NEVER miss the up and under animation
-whenever you tip a pass 95% of the time, the person who passes the ball will retrieve it before you even get to control your player
-the computer can cross any defender you bring, partly because they completely ignore you are alive and tangible and just run right through your limbs
-can teleport on defense and display no signs of having the same momentum movement that the player plays with (they slide all around the court, making it impossible to get by anyone unless you are Derrick Rose, Wade etc..)

I thought 2k11 was pure cheese, because the AI would make every post shot, and superstars were OP (if that's even possible lol) but 2k managed to one up themselves and create an even more blatantly cheap AI.

I wonder how any tester could possibly miss it. After playing 2-3 games vs the AI on HOF or Superstar, you see all the problems listed above. Its ridiculous how no one at 2k noticed it. Probably playing at Pro or something...

[spankdatazz22]

Re: Time to Have that Talk....

Agreed 100%. If you're at that point then I'd really suggest telling your friends. They're almost entitled to know if things are this bad.

Just to clarify, I don't agree that things are "that bad", or anywhere near close. When polls have been done on the board the vast majority agree that 2K12 is a good/great game or when even when comparing 2K11 to 2K12, that the vast majority feel 2K12 is the better game. Which it should be. I'm sure if there was an NFL2K6, while it may not have had the impact 2K5 had, it likely would've been better. Same with NCAA 06' (PS2) to NCAA '07, MVP, etc. I think it's ridiculous to insinuate that the game is so bad that most people are willing to jump to a game that was inferior even to it's NBA2K counterpart that year. If someone prefers playing NBA2K11 that's one thing because I consider the game a classic. Live 10 though? That's laughable because then that's admitting you're willing to forgive all of it's faults while not extending 2K12 the same consideration, imo

[youALREADYknow]

Re: Time to Have that Talk....

Default Rosters + Default Sliders = Default Garbage

[UnbelievablyRAW]

Re: Time to Have that Talk....

Default Rosters + Default Sliders = Default Garbage

This. Absolutely this