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Impacts of Players Out-of-Position in Depth Chart

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Old 03-07-2015, 08:09 AM   #1
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Impacts of Players Out-of-Position in Depth Chart

In this thread, I will post data from analyses I have done regarding how the game manipulates player ratings for "out-of-position" players in Depth Charts. An "out-of-position" player is a player designated for one position (HB, for example) but being placed in another slot (FB, for example) in a Depth Chart.

ANALYSIS ONE: I have a test roster in which all player ratings for all positions have been set to the maximum allowable value of 127 (127 can be implemented with the Editor). In this roster, Alabama has only one designated FB (Kevin Turner). To fill the three FB slots in the depth chart, the game has assigned Mark Ingram and Shaun Alexander to slots 2 and 3. For both Ingram and Alexander, the following FB critical ratings have been degraded when they play in the FB slot:
Agility: Degraded from 127 to 114
Awareness: Degraded from 127 to 63
Break Tackle: Degraded from 127 to 85
Run Blocking: Degraded from 127 to 95
Because the original ratings are all set to 127, the OVRs for Alexander and Ingram still show at 99 when they are slotted as FBs. In a normal roster, these significant ratings reductions will result in a significant OVR reduction and poor play by either Ingram or Alexander if they are inserted into a game as a FB.

Looking through other positions in this max-rated roster, I see other players being used out-of-position. The rating reduction common to every situation is Awareness. Some Awareness reductions are more severe than others. The most severe reduction is from 127 to 63 - a 50% reduction. Awareness is the most important rating for many positions and has the greatest impact upon how a player performs on the field.

So far as I can determine, the only way to prevent these manipulations would be to create at least three players for each position, since the Depth Chart contains at least three slots for each position.

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Old 03-07-2015, 09:12 AM   #2
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Re: Impacts of Players Out-of-Position in Depth Chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by Art01

So far as I can determine, the only way to prevent these manipulations would be to create at least three players for each position, since the Depth Chart contains at least three slots for each position.

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I hear ya'....but you have to look at how often a team uses a particular position. 'Bama runs a one-back offense....they don't need three FBs. If that one guy gets hurt, they need to fill in a guy and play him out of position. Is the awareness 'hit' a bit too extreme? Yes, I think it is. However, creating a roster just to fill each depth chart slot will basically make every team's roster composition the same, which is not realistic as teams run a wide variety of different playbooks (and an air raid team does not need 3 FBs and 3 TEs).
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Old 03-07-2015, 10:03 AM   #3
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Re: Impacts of Players Out-of-Position in Depth Chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by Art01
In this thread, I will post data from analyses I have done regarding how the game manipulates player ratings for "out-of-position" players in Depth Charts. An "out-of-position" player is a player designated for one position (HB, for example) but being placed in another slot (FB, for example) in a Depth Chart.

ANALYSIS ONE: I have a test roster in which all player ratings for all positions have been set to the maximum allowable value of 127 (127 can be implemented with the Editor). In this roster, Alabama has only one designated FB (Kevin Turner). To fill the three FB slots in the depth chart, the game has assigned Mark Ingram and Shaun Alexander to slots 2 and 3. For both Ingram and Alexander, the following FB critical ratings have been degraded when they play in the FB slot:
Agility: Degraded from 127 to 114
Awareness: Degraded from 127 to 63
Break Tackle: Degraded from 127 to 85
Run Blocking: Degraded from 127 to 95
Because the original ratings are all set to 127, the OVRs for Alexander and Ingram still show at 99 when they are slotted as FBs. In a normal roster, these significant ratings reductions will result in a significant OVR reduction and poor play by either Ingram or Alexander if they are inserted into a game as a FB.

Looking through other positions in this max-rated roster, I see other players being used out-of-position. The rating reduction common to every situation is Awareness. Some Awareness reductions are more severe than others. The most severe reduction is from 127 to 63 - a 50% reduction. Awareness is the most important rating for many positions and has the greatest impact upon how a player performs on the field.

So far as I can determine, the only way to prevent these manipulations would be to create at least three players for each position, since the Depth Chart contains at least three slots for each position.

Comments?
I had thought that the reason why a player's OVR changed when he played a postion that was not his usual postion was because the formula used to calculate an OVR was different from position to postion. It was very interesting to read that his ratings actually change. Would the results of your test have been different if you stuck with the default ratings instead of raising them all to 127? I did not even know they could go higher than 99. Do you play on PC? Is this why you can raise the ratings to 127?

I think that the ratings change makes for a more realistic game since players generally do not perform as well when playing a position they do not usually play.

Another thing to remember is that ratings do not mean the same thing from postion to postion in as far as how players pefrom within the game. Speed is the best example. I recall that QB Tyrod taylor's SPD rating for his last year in the NCAA video game was just an 84. WRs who ran just as well as he did were given a SPD of around 90 or so.

Last edited by Warren Piecee; 03-07-2015 at 04:47 PM.
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Old 03-07-2015, 10:44 AM   #4
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Re: Impacts of Players Out-of-Position in Depth Chart

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Originally Posted by Warren Piecee
I had thought that the reason why a player's OVR changed when he played a postion that was not his usual postion was because the formula used to calculate an OVR was different from position to postion. It was very interesting to read that his ratings actually change. Would the results of your test have been different if you stuck with the default ratings instead of raising them all to 127? I did not even know they could go higher than 99. Do you play on PC? Is this why you can raise the ratings to 127?

Ratings changes made within the game are limited to a maximum of 99. However, the actual maximum rating limit is 127. Ratings can be adjusted to numbers between 99 and 127 by using Xanathol's Generic Editor or his Dynasty Editor. There are extensive threads in the Roster section which discuss the Editors and their uses.

I play on a 360, but I use the Editors to make Roster ratings changes externally using my PC.


I think that the ratings change makes for a more realistic game since players generally do not perform as well when playing a position they do not usually play.

That is a true statement. However, when players play out of position, critical ratings such as Awareness are greatly reduced. These reductions dramatically affect a player's performance during the game. These reductions may or may not be realistic.

Another thing to remember that ratings do not mean the same thing from postion to postion in as far as how players pefrom within the game. Speed is the best example. I recall that QB Tyrod taylor's SPD rating for his last year in the NCAA video game was just an 84. WRs who ran just as well as he did were given a SPD for around 90 or so.
Also true, but the game is structured to take advantage of differences in critical ratings for each position. Speed ratings, for example, can be adjusted to provide an edge to either an offensive or a defensive player and that edge alters the way the game plays.
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Last edited by Art01; 03-07-2015 at 10:47 AM. Reason: clarify
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Old 03-07-2015, 04:54 PM   #5
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More Data for Impacts of Players Out-of-Position in Depth Chart

ANALYSIS TWO: I have an editor-modified Roster in which I have set all player ratings for all players in all positions to 40. Note that, when I changed all of the player ratings to 40, I did not change the OVR ratings (found in the column POVR) - thus the original roster OVR ratings remained in place.

I have loaded this roster into the game. When I look at this Roster in the game, I observe the following:

1. Under "Team Management, Depth Chart", I see all player ratings at 40 and the OVR for all players at 40.

2. Under "Team Management, Edit Rosters", I see all player ratings at 40, but the OVR rating for each player is a very different and much higher number and matches the OVR for each player before I modified all the player's ratings. Also, the Players Tendencies are marked "INVALID". It is obvious that the game will not re-calculate the players' OVR ratings when player ratings are changed externally via the Editor.

3. If I choose a player to edit within the in-game "Edit Rosters" option, then make any change to any rating for that player (even just changing a rating by one digit [40 to 39], then returning that rating to the original number [39 to 40]), then the OVR for that player will be immediately calculated and that player's tendency will immediately be displayed.

4. When observing the Depth Chart, players playing out of position have certain critical ratings reduced, with Awareness being reduced by 50% in every case I have observed so far. However, their OVR ratings remained at 40, even though their critical ratings were reduced in their out-of-position slots.

It is curious that, for externally edited players, those players' OVR ratings will be re-calculated when observing them in the Depth Chart option, but, for those same players, their OVR ratings will not be re-calculated when observing them in the Edit Roster option, unless a rating is changed in the Edit Rosters option.

I have also observed "Open Slots" in Depth Charts for the game's original Default roster. Since I have not actually created a basic modified roster myself, I cannot comment upon how slots have been populated by the roster creators. All of the edits I have implemented have been made to rosters I have downloaded from sources such as Tommycoa and Buffeyes. These roster makers have created the Depth Charts by whatever means they have deemed appropriate.

It is too soon for me to draw any conclusions about how the things I have observed might affect game play. But, it certainly appears that there are elements at work that need further understanding with regard to Rosters modified externally via the Editors and Rosters created by other people (especially if they have or have not used the external editor to create those rosters).
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Old 03-07-2015, 08:08 PM   #6
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Re: More Data for Impacts of Players Out-of-Position in Depth Chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by Art01
ANALYSIS TWO: I have an editor-modified Roster in which I have set all player ratings for all players in all positions to 40. Note that, when I changed all of the player ratings to 40, I did not change the OVR ratings (found in the column POVR) - thus the original roster OVR ratings remained in place.

I have loaded this roster into the game. When I look at this Roster in the game, I observe the following:

1. Under "Team Management, Depth Chart", I see all player ratings at 40 and the OVR for all players at 40.

2. Under "Team Management, Edit Rosters", I see all player ratings at 40, but the OVR rating for each player is a very different and much higher number and matches the OVR for each player before I modified all the player's ratings. Also, the Players Tendencies are marked "INVALID". It is obvious that the game will not re-calculate the players' OVR ratings when player ratings are changed externally via the Editor.

3. If I choose a player to edit within the in-game "Edit Rosters" option, then make any change to any rating for that player (even just changing a rating by one digit [40 to 39], then returning that rating to the original number [39 to 40]), then the OVR for that player will be immediately calculated and that player's tendency will immediately be displayed.

4. When observing the Depth Chart, players playing out of position have certain critical ratings reduced, with Awareness being reduced by 50% in every case I have observed so far. However, their OVR ratings remained at 40, even though their critical ratings were reduced in their out-of-position slots.

It is curious that, for externally edited players, those players' OVR ratings will be re-calculated when observing them in the Depth Chart option, but, for those same players, their OVR ratings will not be re-calculated when observing them in the Edit Roster option, unless a rating is changed in the Edit Rosters option.

I have also observed "Open Slots" in Depth Charts for the game's original Default roster. Since I have not actually created a basic modified roster myself, I cannot comment upon how slots have been populated by the roster creators. All of the edits I have implemented have been made to rosters I have downloaded from sources such as Tommycoa and Buffeyes. These roster makers have created the Depth Charts by whatever means they have deemed appropriate.

It is too soon for me to draw any conclusions about how the things I have observed might affect game play. But, it certainly appears that there are elements at work that need further understanding with regard to Rosters modified externally via the Editors and Rosters created by other people (especially if they have or have not used the external editor to create those rosters).
It is good to know that others are interested in understanding the game on this level.
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Old 03-07-2015, 10:00 PM   #7
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Re: Impacts of Players Out-of-Position in Depth Chart

I have a player recruited as an ATH. I assigned him to backup QB but he is low on the depth chart in HB and CB as well (all mid to high 70's with low AWR). He returned kicks and punts also due to high RET rating. I noted early today that his speed rating of 90 is reduced to 63 in the KR/PR assignment. I'll check later on if this holds true for HB and CB.

I am wondering if there is some value which modulates the deduction to ratings. That is, a higher rating mitigates the deduction or lower rating augments the deduction. Perhaps I'll look over an RTG player who plays on both sides and see if there is some Player Unknown field which is affected.

I like the idea of my player playing multiple positions, like a utility player.

Keep the observations coming.
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Old 03-07-2015, 10:58 PM   #8
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Re: Impacts of Players Out-of-Position in Depth Chart

There are four or five ratings for each position which are critical to that position. Awareness is critical to all positions. Other ratings such as Speed, Run Blocking, Tackling, Acceleration, etc. vary in importance depending upon the position. I have done a complete ratings analysis for each position in order to identify the critical ratings for each position.

Those critical ratings are the ones which are reduced when players play out-of-position. Awareness seems to be reduced by 50% for out-of-position players in every case. Other critical ratings reductions vary, depending upon the position.

The OVR rating itself may not be so important with regard to how a player performs, but OVR is used to determine Depth Chart position and combined OVR ratings for all players on a team will determine the teams OVR ratings.

My ultimate goal is to understand as much as I can regarding how these ratings changes affect game play and how the software might be using these ratings manipulations to control Momentum, implement Difficulty Levels, etc.

Given the already obvious 50% reduction in Awareness for out-of-position players, it is a good bet that the software manipulates player substitutions and Depth Chart slotting to insert players into games at critical junctures in order to affect the game's outcome.
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