Home

Varsity vs AA vs Heismann explained along with threshold effects (testing)

This is a discussion on Varsity vs AA vs Heismann explained along with threshold effects (testing) within the NCAA Football Sliders forums.

Go Back   Operation Sports Forums > Football > NCAA Football > NCAA Football Sliders
FIFA 21 Review
Tennis World Tour 2 Review
Doug Flutie's Maximum Football 2020 Review
Poll: Which next-gen console are you going to purchase? (Click to vote)
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-04-2010, 05:10 PM   #1
Pro
 
OVR: 6
Join Date: Jul 2008
Varsity vs AA vs Heismann explained along with threshold effects (testing)

I generated the following table from testing 40 yard dash times with a stopwatch of the AI with 90 speed 90 acc HB vs 80 speed, 80 acc LB:

SettingThreshold HB LB Diff
Varsity 04.114.630.52
504.024.490.47
1004.034.350.3
Heisman04.314.80.48
504.34.620.325
1004.164.350.19


This tells us several important facts:

1) Players are faster on varsity than heisman regar(AA is in between; not shown here). By adjusting the difficulty level the computer is just improving the attributs of the AI not actually increasing the difficulty of the game. Designers have previously stated that this is how the difficulty works but I wanted to actually show that. They have also previously stated that the exact way it works is to boost the AI and penalize the human on Heismann, no effect on AA, and boost the human and penalize the AI on Varsity:
--Varsity boost attributes of human controlled players
--Varsity likley penalizes AI attributes
--Heismann penalizes human players attributes
--Heismann likely boosts AI players attributes

2) The gap of combine players between HB and LB is about 0.16 seconds to 0.19 seconds. For players in pads and given poorer speed on Defense in college lets make a goal of 0.25. Even on default of Heismann gap is too large this is made much worse on varsity where the AI appears to be much faster at HB relative to LB (perhaps the attribute boost is a % and not an absolute).
--Default threshold is too big but not too bad at Heismann
--Default threshold is much too large on varsity
--Threshold slider appears ot have a similar impact on the % change of speeds around an unknown value at either varsity of heismann.
--Threshold of 0 negatively impacts the speed differential.

3) HB get faster as threshold increases. This is even more noticable with linebackers. This means that the threshold slider does NOT move players closer together around a median/mean value but rather pushes all players statistics towards 99 compressing speed values (i.e. it makes all players <99 faster), conversely a lower threshold makes all playres even those at 90 slower stretching teh difference.
--Threshold shortens the gap or increases the gap around a value of 99 not around a value of 90.
--WR at 99 are not getting slower, CB at 90 are getting faster as threshold approaches 100
--WR at 99 are not getting faster, CB at 90 are getting slower as threshold approaches 0
Oraeon1224 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Advertisements - Register to remove
Old 08-04-2010, 05:12 PM   #2
Pro
 
OVR: 6
Join Date: Jul 2008
Re: Varsity vs AA vs Heismann explained along with threshold effects (testing)

I hope this clarifies how difficulty level and sliders work. I personally would not recommend difficulty of Heismann or Varsity because of the player attribute effects and the difficulty of modifying sliders around these changes, however, if you have a set that you like more power to you. Just be aware this is what is actually happening not a change in AI intellect.

I also do not think a threshold of 0 particularly with the game on varsity is at all realistic but again if you enjoy continue. The default setting of 50 is not bad but I like faster LB and prefer a value of 65 (gives a gap of 0.25 on AA).
Oraeon1224 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2010, 06:24 PM   #3
Rookie
 
OVR: 2
Join Date: Jul 2004
Re: Varsity vs AA vs Heismann explained along with threshold effects (testing)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oraeon1224
Just be aware this is what is actually happening not a change in AI intellect.
I thought for sure that the developers had previously stated that the difficulty level affects the rate of decision-making for computer-controlled players. Thus, computer-controlled players will react more quickly (and more often) to what they are "seeing" on Heisman than on Varsity.
einstein is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2010, 07:10 PM   #4
Pro
 
OVR: 6
Join Date: Jul 2008
Re: Varsity vs AA vs Heismann explained along with threshold effects (testing)

Quote:
Originally Posted by einstein
I thought for sure that the developers had previously stated that the difficulty level affects the rate of decision-making for computer-controlled players. Thus, computer-controlled players will react more quickly (and more often) to what they are "seeing" on Heisman than on Varsity.
My test has nothing whatsoever to do with what the AI is seeing it is pure stat testing. This very clearly shows that the AI is recieving attribute boost from the slider settings. The reason they see more is because the boost is from increased awareness, reading plays, and other ratings which effect jumping routes and responding to your players. Thus they do see more, but this is through a general attribute boost.
Oraeon1224 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2010, 07:13 PM   #5
Pro
 
OVR: 6
Join Date: Jul 2008
Re: Varsity vs AA vs Heismann explained along with threshold effects (testing)

To make this easier to understand here is the expected gap between the LB and the WR in feet at each setting covering a distance of 30yd line to opponents 30 yard line prior to the catch (40yds).

Gap between LB and WR
Varsity013.38ft
5010.05ft
1008.4ft
Heisman012.12ft
508.43ft
1005.22ft
Oraeon1224 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Advertisements - Register to remove
Old 08-05-2010, 05:40 AM   #6
Text Battle Rec: 36-4
 
JerzeyReign's Arena
 
OVR: 43
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Arkham Asylum
Posts: 4,988
Blog Entries: 2
Re: Varsity vs AA vs Heismann explained along with threshold effects (testing)

Hey Man I'm going to jump into this convo with you...

My first discrepancy with your work is that your going off 40 times. In game (IRL as well) NO ONE is running around doing their "40 times". Normally they have 3 chances and their best time is taken down and recorded. Its mostly about, IMO, 'am I faster than you' when athletes compete on the football field. None of this research takes into account what these players run with equipment on as well.

What your doing is great for a starting point but shouldn't be used as the actual foundation you should use for this topic. Think about it, alot of corners/WR in the power conferences run sub 4.5 40 times. Speed is still a determining factor. Those Tebow-led Gator teams were running circles around the rest of the SEC and most of those guys are between 4.2-4.4 speed. Acceleration is the biggest factor in all of this. The lower the speed threshold the better representation of a player's true speed will be displayed in NCAA '11. But I'll let you continue.

I'll continue to monitor your results though. Good work so far.


Ray
__________________
Youtube: {SimHeadGaming}
Twitter: {JerzeyReign}

Last edited by JerzeyReign; 08-05-2010 at 05:44 AM.
JerzeyReign is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2010, 08:27 AM   #7
Banned
 
OVR: 10
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Williamstown NJ
Re: Varsity vs AA vs Heismann explained along with threshold effects (testing)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oraeon1224
I generated the following table from testing 40 yard dash times with a stopwatch of the AI with 90 speed 90 acc HB vs 80 speed, 80 acc LB:

SettingThreshold HB LB Diff
Varsity 04.114.630.52
504.024.490.47
1004.034.350.3
Heisman04.314.80.48
504.34.620.325
1004.164.350.19


This tells us several important facts:

1) Players are faster on varsity than heisman regar(AA is in between; not shown here). By adjusting the difficulty level the computer is just improving the attributs of the AI not actually increasing the difficulty of the game. Designers have previously stated that this is how the difficulty works but I wanted to actually show that. They have also previously stated that the exact way it works is to boost the AI and penalize the human on Heismann, no effect on AA, and boost the human and penalize the AI on Varsity:
--Varsity boost attributes of human controlled players
--Varsity likley penalizes AI attributes
--Heismann penalizes human players attributes
--Heismann likely boosts AI players attributes

2) The gap of combine players between HB and LB is about 0.16 seconds to 0.19 seconds. For players in pads and given poorer speed on Defense in college lets make a goal of 0.25. Even on default of Heismann gap is too large this is made much worse on varsity where the AI appears to be much faster at HB relative to LB (perhaps the attribute boost is a % and not an absolute).
--Default threshold is too big but not too bad at Heismann
--Default threshold is much too large on varsity
--Threshold slider appears ot have a similar impact on the % change of speeds around an unknown value at either varsity of heismann.
--Threshold of 0 negatively impacts the speed differential.

3) HB get faster as threshold increases. This is even more noticable with linebackers. This means that the threshold slider does NOT move players closer together around a median/mean value but rather pushes all players statistics towards 99 compressing speed values (i.e. it makes all players <99 faster), conversely a lower threshold makes all playres even those at 90 slower stretching teh difference.
--Threshold shortens the gap or increases the gap around a value of 99 not around a value of 90.
--WR at 99 are not getting slower, CB at 90 are getting faster as threshold approaches 100
--WR at 99 are not getting faster, CB at 90 are getting slower as threshold approaches 0
So with these statistics your basically saying the only way to get the players to truly play to their attributes without the garbage boosts is on All-American thats really interesting.
MasterMike32v2 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2010, 09:05 AM   #8
MVP
 
Amoo316's Arena
 
OVR: 19
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: South Ga
Posts: 3,319
Blog Entries: 4
Re: Varsity vs AA vs Heismann explained along with threshold effects (testing)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterMike32v2
So with these statistics your basically saying the only way to get the players to truly play to their attributes without the garbage boosts is on All-American thats really interesting.
He actually says he is showing what has been previously stated by game designers, kind of the same thing you are saying but definitely a difference if people wanted to get all tight-britches about it.
__________________
Golf: Bubba
MLB: Braves
Nascar: Smoke
NBA: Heat
NCAA: Florida & Miss State
NFL: Whichever team currently has the most of my favorite college players
NHL: Caps
Tennis: The Joker & Sloane Stevens
WWE: Dean Ambrose
Misc: Anybody wearing a Team USA jersey
Amoo316 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Reply


« Previous Thread | Next Thread »

« Operation Sports Forums > Football > NCAA Football > NCAA Football Sliders »


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:18 AM.

Top -