Slider theory discussion

[dalecooper]

I have some general theoretical questions to ask - figure we could use a thread for this instead of posting in everyone's individual slider threads.

I. The speed threshold question. The idea is that the lower the threshold, the more difference there is between the various speed ratings. The question I have is this: in reviewing the Heisman sliders to find a set for my next offline dynasty, I see that basically everybody that has done a Heisman set has a non-zero value for this. Not only are they not zero, many of them are 40 or higher. That seems crazy to me. What is the argument for setting this so high? And how does it affect the game on Heisman level specifically? (Just as a sample: Fistofrage has this at 45; SN at 35; NDAlum at 40; etc.) The All-American slider sets generally have this much lower - most are at 25 or 0.

II. The run game and slider interaction. People who have tested this more than me have very different ideas of how the run game really works in the sliders. I've seen some people say that the run block slider affects it the most. I've also seen people say that it's a complicated system of run block, RB ability, tackling, run defense, and that even some of the other sliders can affect it. I'm wondering if anyone has done extensive testing with controls to see how much each slider seems to change things, and if you have a slider set, how you settled on the numbers you did. The values in these categories are a really wide range - just to put a couple popular sets against each other, NDAlum has run defense at 50/75, run block at 50/25 (!) and RB ability at 75/75 on Heisman; Fistofrage has run defense at 25/50, run block at 50/75 (!!!) and RB ability at 50/50; both have a medium tackling level (40/40 for Fist, 50/50 for NDAlum). These suggest that they would create very different types of ground games, both vs. each other and for user vs. CPU.

That's enough for now I suppose.

[fistofrage]

Quote: Originally Posted by dalecooper

I have some general theoretical questions to ask - figure we could use a thread for this instead of posting in everyone's individual slider threads. I. The speed threshold question. The idea is that the lower the threshold, the more difference there is between the various speed ratings. The question I have is this: in reviewing the Heisman sliders to find a set for my next offline dynasty, I see that basically everybody that has done a Heisman set has a non-zero value for this. Not only are they not zero, many of them are 40 or higher. That seems crazy to me. What is the argument for setting this so high? And how does it affect the game on Heisman level specifically? (Just as a sample: Fistofrage has this at 45; SN at 35; NDAlum at 40; etc.) The All-American slider sets generally have this much lower - most are at 25 or 0. II. The run game and slider interaction. People who have tested this more than me have very different ideas of how the run game really works in the sliders. I've seen some people say that the run block slider affects it the most. I've also seen people say that it's a complicated system of run block, RB ability, tackling, run defense, and that even some of the other sliders can affect it. I'm wondering if anyone has done extensive testing with controls to see how much each slider seems to change things, and if you have a slider set, how you settled on the numbers you did. The values in these categories are a really wide range - just to put a couple popular sets against each other, NDAlum has run defense at 50/75, run block at 50/25 (!) and RB ability at 75/75 on Heisman; Fistofrage has run defense at 25/50, run block at 50/75 (!!!) and RB ability at 50/50; both have a medium tackling level (40/40 for Fist, 50/50 for NDAlum). These suggest that they would create very different types of ground games, both vs. each other and for user vs. CPU. That's enough for now I suppose.

The speed threshold. When I had it below 45, it just seemed way too easy to get around the corner. At 45, I still see separation between the speed guys and the normal players.

RB ability. 50 seems to be the sweet spot. For the AI, I see them break to the outside more and cover the ball less in open space. IMO they actually run smarter at 50 and I see no real noticable speed difference. For the human, the RBA slider needs to be at 50 otherwise it turns into a defensive TD festival. The RBA slider effects the human ball carrier, anyone who has the ball. I saw this when I had my RBA at 60, my 87 speed SS intercepted a pass at the 5 and outran a 93 speed WR who could not gain any ground on him. I also saw my 88 speed RB outrun 90+ speed DB's.

Run Block is the key. You need to have it high enough for the AI otherwise their spread doesn't work and Human tackles for loss are way too high.

Tackling at 40/40 makes power backs relevant and reduces the number of highlite reel hits and puts fumbles at a realistic level.

[dalecooper]

Quote: Originally Posted by fistofrage

For the human, the RBA slider needs to be at 50 otherwise it turns into a defensive TD festival. The RBA slider effects the human ball carrier, anyone who has the ball. I saw this when I had my RBA at 60, my 87 speed SS intercepted a pass at the 5 and outran a 93 speed WR who could not gain any ground on him. I also saw my 88 speed RB outrun 90+ speed DB's.

That is really interesting, thanks for mentioning that. I have been experiencing the opposite - I've been playing on All-American with RB ability pretty low, and my DBs were always getting run down after picks regardless of how fast they were. I just had a frustrating game where on the last play before halftime my free safety picked one off on my own goalline and had an open field to the other end zone, but he was run down by four (!) guys from the other team. When I checked stats afterward his speed was at least as high as every player that caught up with him. Man I wanted to kick my XBox - that would have been a huge momentum shift.

Quote: Originally Posted by fistofrage

Run Block is the key. You need to have it high enough for the AI otherwise their spread doesn't work and Human tackles for loss are way too high. Tackling at 40/40 makes power backs relevant and reduces the number of highlite reel hits and puts fumbles at a realistic level.

I'm glad to hear that it's possible to have a power running game. I had been letting my power guy rot on the bench while doing all outside/speed running. I am going to give your sliders a test run, thanks for the insights.

[dalecooper]

Quote: Originally Posted by fistofrage

The speed threshold. When I had it below 45, it just seemed way too easy to get around the corner. At 45, I still see separation between the speed guys and the normal players.

So the main reason you have it so high is to help keep the outside running game in check? How fast is your primary halfback?

Curiously I'm not really getting that result at all. I play on AA right now, so it might be different, but my threshhold is really low (want to say it's set at 20 currently) and both my back and QB are constantly getting pulled down from behind on outside runs, by defensive ends and linebackers. And their speed should be much higher than most of those guys. But maybe it has to do with how low my RB ability slider is..?

[youALREADYknow]

The most important sliders for the running game are Speed Threshold, Tackling, and RB Ability.

Run Blocking and Rush Defense are really watered down and used for fine tuning after you have a good base with the above sliders. It could be argued that both Run Blocking and Rush Defense could be left at the default of 50 if you found the right balance of the above three sliders.

I'd always leave Run Blocking above 50 though only because the 2nd patch re-introduced the "shed blocks" animations as soon as the ball carrier crosses the LOS.

[fistofrage]

Quote: Originally Posted by dalecooper

So the main reason you have it so high is to help keep the outside running game in check? How fast is your primary halfback? Curiously I'm not really getting that result at all. I play on AA right now, so it might be different, but my threshhold is really low (want to say it's set at 20 currently) and both my back and QB are constantly getting pulled down from behind on outside runs, by defensive ends and linebackers. And their speed should be much higher than most of those guys. But maybe it has to do with how low my RB ability slider is..?

I play with MSU mainly and Caper is the feature back with a speed of 87. With the threshold too low, he was getting the corner too easy. He's mainly a power back and should be used as such.

[dalecooper]

Here's another couple of questions about Heisman. Sorry about length, I just have a lot of thoughts going on.

I. The purpose and effectiveness of the INT slider. I've seen varying opinions about what this thing does (if anything) but the consensus lately seems to be that it's less about making the guys catch more passes that hit their hands than giving them the ability to play the pass properly and aggressively - the end result being that it will result in more swats and tips AS WELL AS more picks. For guys who have tested this a lot, what is your opinion?

I notice a huge variety of settings for this in popular sliders. Fist: 45/35. SN and SteelerSpartan: 10/10 and 5/5. DaCoach and NDAlum: 50/50 and 50/40. That is a pretty broad assortment, although nobody has it cranked above 50. Can any of you guys shed light on why you chose these settings, low or high (or default)? One of my beefs with post-patch All-American is that my defenders are out of position a lot for no clear reason, leaving guys wide open who really ought to be covered. I'd like to know if I should be looking at INTs, pass coverage, or both to resolve this. I know pass rush will help also, but mine has been pretty good and it doesn't really matter.

II. QB accuracy. Again the settings are so wild I have to ask. Fist, NDAlum, and SteelerSpartan all have these REALLY low in their Heisman sets: 10/10 or 10/5. SN and DaCoach have 30/30 and 40/40 though. My own experience has been that QBs on both sides are very accurate after patch 2, and my AA sliders right now have it at 10 for user, 5 for CPU. But I haven't tried it on Heisman. Any thoughts?

As above, it seems like pass rush should (and does) affect this - QBs throw less accurately under duress, although generally you have to have the CPU QB almost in the grasp to make him throw really badly. Pass rush, pass block sliders don't line up across the board though. I was wondering if SN and DaCoach would have reduced blocking and increased pass rushing to offset the higher accuracy, but it's far from that:

SN: pass block 55/50; pass rush 50/40
DaCoach: pass block 65/35; pass rush 30/5

Comparatively, Fist has pass block at 40/10 and rush at 60/50, and NDAlum has block at 45/10 and rush at 50/50.

It looks on paper like in SN's sliders, pass rush and block are close to default levels, so accuracy shouldn't be too affected if you're used to firing passes off in a regular amount of time. In DaCoach's sliders, I'm just bewildered: user pass block is high, CPU rush is really low, and accuracy is the highest of the Heisman sets I'm looking at. It seems like that would make QBs way too deadly in the control of a good passer. And the CPU settings are high as well. I'd fully expect QBs to complete a really high percentage with those settings.

[fistofrage]

Quote: Originally Posted by dalecooper

Here's another couple of questions about Heisman. Sorry about length, I just have a lot of thoughts going on. I. The purpose and effectiveness of the INT slider. I've seen varying opinions about what this thing does (if anything) but the consensus lately seems to be that it's less about making the guys catch more passes that hit their hands than giving them the ability to play the pass properly and aggressively - the end result being that it will result in more swats and tips AS WELL AS more picks. For guys who have tested this a lot, what is your opinion? I notice a huge variety of settings for this in popular sliders. Fist: 45/35. SN and SteelerSpartan: 10/10 and 5/5. DaCoach and NDAlum: 50/50 and 50/40. That is a pretty broad assortment, although nobody has it cranked above 50. Can any of you guys shed light on why you chose these settings, low or high (or default)? One of my beefs with post-patch All-American is that my defenders are out of position a lot for no clear reason, leaving guys wide open who really ought to be covered. I'd like to know if I should be looking at INTs, pass coverage, or both to resolve this. I know pass rush will help also, but mine has been pretty good and it doesn't really matter. II. QB accuracy. Again the settings are so wild I have to ask. Fist, NDAlum, and SteelerSpartan all have these REALLY low in their Heisman sets: 10/10 or 10/5. SN and DaCoach have 30/30 and 40/40 though. My own experience has been that QBs on both sides are very accurate after patch 2, and my AA sliders right now have it at 10 for user, 5 for CPU. But I haven't tried it on Heisman. Any thoughts? As above, it seems like pass rush should (and does) affect this - QBs throw less accurately under duress, although generally you have to have the CPU QB almost in the grasp to make him throw really badly. Pass rush, pass block sliders don't line up across the board though. I was wondering if SN and DaCoach would have reduced blocking and increased pass rushing to offset the higher accuracy, but it's far from that: SN: pass block 55/50; pass rush 50/40 DaCoach: pass block 65/35; pass rush 30/5 Comparatively, Fist has pass block at 40/10 and rush at 60/50, and NDAlum has block at 45/10 and rush at 50/50. It looks on paper like in SN's sliders, pass rush and block are close to default levels, so accuracy shouldn't be too affected if you're used to firing passes off in a regular amount of time. In DaCoach's sliders, I'm just bewildered: user pass block is high, CPU rush is really low, and accuracy is the highest of the Heisman sets I'm looking at. It seems like that would make QBs way too deadly in the control of a good passer. And the CPU settings are high as well. I'd fully expect QBs to complete a really high percentage with those settings.

If I had to say, the Pass coverage slider is the ability to cover. IE speed and awareness and probably Jet Pack jumping ability. The Int slider definitely effects if they will catch the ball, but it also seems to have some effect on coverage, probably HOW they play the ball.