A solution to the Hardcore vs Casual gamer debate..

[ODogg]

Quote: Originally Posted by jfsolo

Lets ignore the economic reality that they will never make two separate versions of the same game. For arguements sake lets say they do undertake this endeavor. I don't think they have the programmers with the ability to actually make the kind of game that serious sim players want. When I see some of the gameplay shortcuts that they take now It seems clear to me that they do so not because they necessarily want to, but because they lack the skills to do better. I'm sure that there are some programmers out there who can do it, but I don't think they currently work at EA Tiburon.

I agree, I don't think EA could do it either, not with the current team.

[ODogg]

Quote: Originally Posted by njskillz

ODogg, I will use Madden as an example. I'm quite sure you've seen various clips or maybe been a part of Madden tournaments right? These tournaments have gotten so big that I think they give out cash prizes as high as $10,000. What is it? Its two guys matching wits, calling plays, CONTROLLING the players, competing against one another. You say you've been in the game since the 80's well then you do have an idea of the Controller/Joystick and the reason for its existence.

well I think i'm starting to see where you are coming from. i've watched madden tournaments and it should be about matching wits but right now it's not so much that but stick ability. so I think you're saying hardcore to you means making the gameplay play more realistically, not necessarily all of the cereberal aspect of the X's and O's. I guess that's where we somewhat differ as I place more of a premium on the thinking aspect as opposed to the joystick, actual playing but in truth it requires both to be well to be totally sim-like.

Quote: Originally Posted by njskillz

By the way, I read a preview of NFL Head Coach. That is how I came up with my assessment. You read the preview on TeamXbox and you tell me how it translates to hardcore.

Again, because it's more about the plays and the strategy,chess match aspect to football. It's about matching wits in respect to calling the right plays. To me hardcore footballers should be better in that respect, thus making it "hardcore" at least in my opinion.

Quote: Originally Posted by njskillz

I have one question for you. Isn't there already an outlet for that type of "Coaching" activity, sans the virtual conversations with players, agents, etc.??? I think its called Fantasy Football. No one confuses fantasy football with actually playing a videogame (although the reason I grew frustrated with the NFL2K5 league I was in was because of the Fantasy Football bent it took with the ridiculous player trades).

Fantasy football is only the management of players, not X's and O's so it's not really what I'm talking about here, although I do love FF.

[njskillz]

Quote: Originally Posted by ODogg

well I think i'm starting to see where you are coming from. i've watched madden tournaments and it should be about matching wits but right now it's not so much that but stick ability. so I think you're saying hardcore to you means making the gameplay play more realistically, not necessarily all of the cereberal aspect of the X's and O's. I guess that's where we somewhat differ as I place more of a premium on the thinking aspect as opposed to the joystick, actual playing but in truth it requires both to be well to be totally sim-like. Again, because it's more about the plays and the strategy,chess match aspect to football. It's about matching wits in respect to calling the right plays. To me hardcore footballers should be better in that respect, thus making it "hardcore" at least in my opinion. Fantasy football is only the management of players, not X's and O's so it's not really what I'm talking about here, although I do love FF.

Ok, now I see where you were going with that. I do agree with you to an extent. I guess where we differ is in the fact that I along with the chess match x and O aspect of football, I think the videogame control the action aspect is just as important. This was a good debate though, I definitely appreciated your feedback on the topic. When I finally get my 360 setup back up and running (finishing basement) I hope to see you online. Although
you have some casual gamer in you, anyone who has an appreciation for the X's and O's of football is alright with me! LOL!

[ODogg]

Quote: Originally Posted by njskillz

Ok, now I see where you were going with that. I do agree with you to an extent. I guess where we differ is in the fact that I along with the chess match x and O aspect of football, I think the videogame control the action aspect is just as important. This was a good debate though, I definitely appreciated your feedback on the topic. When I finally get my 360 setup back up and running (finishing basement) I hope to see you online. Although you have some casual gamer in you, anyone who has an appreciation for the X's and O's of football is alright with me! LOL!

yeah we'll have to look each other up for sure! as for NFL head coach, i'm kind of nervous about it because i've always fancied myself fairly smart at the game but just kind of lacking in the joystick jockeying. if i go online with NFL head coach and continue with my losing ways then I guess that theory goes out the window (assuming there is no cheese of course).

I think right now my madden record is like 12-8 or so and my NCAA record is 48-58 or something. in ncaa i'm always around 50/50 but never quite there. personally though, i believe if i could wipe off the cheese losses i'd be about 48-30 becaue it seems about half the guys online cheese.

which is a whole other debate, when will EA fix or at least alleviate the cheese issues online...wow that's a big, ugly can of worms...LOL

[michigan21]

Quote: Originally Posted by ODogg

The problem is it's not the same. A car is a concept. What we speak of here is a league which isn't a concept in and of itself but a very specific licensed and branded product entitled to use by and for the sale of, as to how they chose, a group of individuals. The NFL for example does not have any decision making in the use of all football games, which would be akin to how your arguement paints them but only the football games using their specific branding that represents their league. Using your analogy of the Model T, it would be akin to someone else just one day begin to start making automobiles exactly like the Model T and calling them Model T's. They would be sued and put out of business pronto. Now someone else could, and did, make a new car to compete with the Model T, but they made their own car and didn't call it the Model T. Again going back to the common analogy given above, this would be akin to all of us being outraged that we can't have our choice of car manufacturers making various Model T's because we're unhappy with what Ford is doing with that particular model. The whole idea when phrased that way seems pretty ludicrous (or at least it should). Any company in the world right now could make a football game for any system, just not using the particular license of the NFL because the NFL chose to pick one company to make their a football game branded with their own particular product. Again, let me repeat that....the NFL CHOSE to eliminate competition. What this boils down to is that that people aren't demanding competition in the videogame football industry, it's that people are demanding competition in the NFL/NCAA videogame football industry which itself has declined to give it's consumers competition. Note that key words ...NFL DECLINED...COMPETITION... That is the difference between a monopoly and simply a calculated, legal yet unpopular business decision.. As for the person who said it's a moot point in this thread, it's not a moot point when it's pretty obvious most of the anger is directed directly at EA instead of where it should be, at the NCAA and NFL. Just to be clear I'm personally against deals like this but I am really getting tired of hearing all of the arguements or innuendo about how EA is to blame for the demise of NFL2Kxx series and also the tired and ridiculious arguement that EA is a monopoly in regards to football games. They don't have a monopoly on football games, they simply have the licenses of football games which you guys prefer to play.

Spoken like a true Republican *******. Boy, If only Republicans ruled everything; Oh thats right they do. In any event, your comments about getting sick and tired of the innuendo and EA being the demise of the NFLxx series is absurd at best. They (EA) killed the only competition that would push them to make a game that us hardcore fans have been waiting for for damn near 4 yrs now. EA runs itself and the madden and ncaa series giving us the gamer some but not too much improvement to keep people coming back every year. But now I think people are starting to wake up.

[mgoblue]

I think two games would be a great idea. I also think that me winning the lottery would rock. Can I have a pony too? Oh wait:

[ODogg]

Quote: Originally Posted by michigan21

Spoken like a true Republican .

We're not supposed to talk politics here so I'll just end this right now with a "thank you" for the above comment

[ODogg]

Quote: Originally Posted by mgoblue

I think two games would be a great idea. I also think that me winning the lottery would rock. Can I have a pony too? Oh wait:

LOL hilarious man...where do people find these sorts of pictures???