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THE GREAT SIM DEBATE

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Old 06-16-2009, 03:16 PM   #33
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Re: THE GREAT SIM DEBATE

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moostache
Its a little unfair to ONLY show the plays that are highlight reels!

With Vick, there was the 53% career completion percentage to contend with....kind of made him a real liability if you were down and needed to pass! In the games, because you could hurry to the line and the clock never ran off enough time between plays, this was further masked in Madden when people LOVED using Vick...but honesty, the guy was a bottom third QB when he played and he was as affective as Bo Jackson in Tecmo Bowl!

With Bush, no doubt in college he was a freak...but in his pro career he is a bit more ordinary and injury prone. He has gamebreaker potential, but he has a career 3.7 ypc average! Additionally, in the NFL, he has 20 career TDs in 38 games...not exactly threatening Jim Brown or Walter Payton or Jerry Rice or Emmitt Smith for career TDs...

Greg Jones is averaging 3.4 ypc for his NFL career...but yeah, he did have a couple of great runs in his life...but they are the EXCEPTION, not the RULE!

The same thing holds for the game in terms of what I consider "sim" or "cheese". The game itself is NEVER going to be sim because it is programmed and cannot adapt other than the one person controlling a player at a time - there is some hope with "adaptive AI", but honestly, we have heard THAT before. When I am able to manually coach up my players and halt something like the Wildcat via in-game strategic adjustments, then fine..****n it as much as you want...but only when there is an adequate counter move available.

There are a few things that I simply HATE (and consider them "cheese"), but they are not against the rules and you could try to say they are "sim" all day and I won't hear ya!

1) No-huddle offense on incomplete pass...the entire point of the hurry-up offense is to conserve clock or limit defensive subs...it is NOT to see what the defense is in (from the "god" camera angle / Offensive Coordinator view) and then IMMEDIATELY call the SAME play off an incompletion (just because you saw that the FS was out of position and threw to the wrong guy the first time)...VERDICT? ---> CHEDDAR!

2) Refusing to punt the ball in obvious punting situations...I had a guy going fo it on 4th and 32 from his own 12 yard line...on the opening drive of the game! When I paused and messaged "?", his reply was "I do not punt"...of course, he DOES quit...which was done before half time. There is NOTHING "sim" about this style of player and while there are times in games that going for it on 4th down IS OK or even the only "sim" thing to do...that is not a one size fits all label! VERDICT --> SWISS!

3) Going for 2-point conversion on EVERY score...again just like going for it on 4th downs, this is situationally "sim" but universally it is NOT sim to do all the time! VERDICT --> LIMBURGER!

People do not do these things for strategic advantages, they do them because they exploiut the game's AI and provide an artificial and unrealistic advantage. Sure, in reall life, IF you could do it, there are coaches who WOULD (Leach is certainly one that comes to mind), but the fact is that using tactics only because they break the AI is, was and always will be 100% CHEESE.
I just brought that up for the guys that were saying long runs are cheese and I never said any of it translated to pro success.
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Old 06-16-2009, 03:22 PM   #34
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Re: THE GREAT SIM DEBATE

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Originally Posted by stewaat
Here is how I view "sim"
- If you exploit the game in any way, you are not sim.

I think it is as easy as that.
Plain and simple.
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Old 06-16-2009, 03:37 PM   #35
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Re: THE GREAT SIM DEBATE

Quote:
Originally Posted by stewaat
Here is how I view "sim"
- If you exploit the game in any way, you are not sim.

I think it is as easy as that.
And at the point the game can be exploited its no longer a sim. So I agree with Moostache, until you see adaptive AI, probably not going to be a sim. Because with adaptive AI, there wouldn't or at least shouldn't be money plays that can be run successfully every single play.
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Old 06-16-2009, 04:49 PM   #36
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Re: THE GREAT SIM DEBATE

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Originally Posted by fistofrage
And at the point the game can be exploited its no longer a sim. So I agree with Moostache, until you see adaptive AI, probably not going to be a sim. Because with adaptive AI, there wouldn't or at least shouldn't be money plays that can be run successfully every single play.
You are 100% correct, but what about the people that don't punt, go for 2 after every score.
They exploit certain aspects of the game that are actually fundamental to the game of football. If they made it so that you could only go for it on 4th or go for 2 in certain situations, that would make the game less sim.
The problem is there is a difference between a player cheesing and the game being sim.
If there is a money play that always works and can't be stopped no matter what defensive adjustments you make, that is not-sim.
If a player never punts and goes for 2 all the time, the game is still sim but the player is a cheeser.
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Old 06-16-2009, 05:03 PM   #37
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Re: THE GREAT SIM DEBATE

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moostache
Its a little unfair to ONLY show the plays that are highlight reels!

With Vick, there was the 53% career completion percentage to contend with....kind of made him a real liability if you were down and needed to pass! In the games, because you could hurry to the line and the clock never ran off enough time between plays, this was further masked in Madden when people LOVED using Vick...but honesty, the guy was a bottom third QB when he played and he was as affective as Bo Jackson in Tecmo Bowl!

With Bush, no doubt in college he was a freak...but in his pro career he is a bit more ordinary and injury prone. He has gamebreaker potential, but he has a career 3.7 ypc average! Additionally, in the NFL, he has 20 career TDs in 38 games...not exactly threatening Jim Brown or Walter Payton or Jerry Rice or Emmitt Smith for career TDs...

Greg Jones is averaging 3.4 ypc for his NFL career...but yeah, he did have a couple of great runs in his life...but they are the EXCEPTION, not the RULE!

The same thing holds for the game in terms of what I consider "sim" or "cheese". The game itself is NEVER going to be sim because it is programmed and cannot adapt other than the one person controlling a player at a time - there is some hope with "adaptive AI", but honestly, we have heard THAT before. When I am able to manually coach up my players and halt something like the Wildcat via in-game strategic adjustments, then fine..****n it as much as you want...but only when there is an adequate counter move available.

There are a few things that I simply HATE (and consider them "cheese"), but they are not against the rules and you could try to say they are "sim" all day and I won't hear ya!

1) No-huddle offense on incomplete pass...the entire point of the hurry-up offense is to conserve clock or limit defensive subs...it is NOT to see what the defense is in (from the "god" camera angle / Offensive Coordinator view) and then IMMEDIATELY call the SAME play off an incompletion (just because you saw that the FS was out of position and threw to the wrong guy the first time)...VERDICT? ---> CHEDDAR!

2) Refusing to punt the ball in obvious punting situations...I had a guy going fo it on 4th and 32 from his own 12 yard line...on the opening drive of the game! When I paused and messaged "?", his reply was "I do not punt"...of course, he DOES quit...which was done before half time. There is NOTHING "sim" about this style of player and while there are times in games that going for it on 4th down IS OK or even the only "sim" thing to do...that is not a one size fits all label! VERDICT --> SWISS!

3) Going for 2-point conversion on EVERY score...again just like going for it on 4th downs, this is situationally "sim" but universally it is NOT sim to do all the time! VERDICT --> LIMBURGER!

People do not do these things for strategic advantages, they do them because they exploiut the game's AI and provide an artificial and unrealistic advantage. Sure, in reall life, IF you could do it, there are coaches who WOULD (Leach is certainly one that comes to mind), but the fact is that using tactics only because they break the AI is, was and always will be 100% CHEESE.
That is not entirely true. The "Hurry up" offence is used all the time by weaker teams to throw off a stronger team, by doing something that they haven't prepared for. And as a HS Coach I can tell you that it is most certainly done after incomplete passes. Not to conserve the clock, but to keep the Defence on their toes, and prevent Defensive adjustments just like you said. The ball can be snapped following an incoplete pass as soon as the ball is spotted and the offence is set, just like after any other play. If we're in the hurry up and it is working, we are not going to take our foot off the petal because of an incomplete pass.
However, you are correct that the way it is done in the game is not sim. In real life, we practice a hurry up defence, so that we can make quick personel changes between plays. In the game the defence can't make any changes, so in that regard you are right in saying it is not sim.
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Old 06-16-2009, 05:08 PM   #38
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Re: THE GREAT SIM DEBATE

Quote:
Originally Posted by doom41
You are 100% correct, but what about the people that don't punt, go for 2 after every score.
They exploit certain aspects of the game that are actually fundamental to the game of football. If they made it so that you could only go for it on 4th or go for 2 in certain situations, that would make the game less sim.
The problem is there is a difference between a player cheesing and the game being sim.
If there is a money play that always works and can't be stopped no matter what defensive adjustments you make, that is not-sim.
If a player never punts and goes for 2 all the time, the game is still sim but the player is a cheeser.
There is a difference between a player playing sim and the game being sim. There is nothing that stops a real coach for going for 2 or going for it on 4th down every time except the percentages. If some clown wants to go for 2 every time, thats fine, but he should only make it 40% of the time over the course of the season if the game was a sim. That would deter him from doing it.

As long as the game is sim, the player will have to follow suit or get crushed by the percentages over time. Thats not to say that they couldn't convert 5 in a row in one game, but the percentages should catch up in the long run.
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Old 06-16-2009, 05:33 PM   #39
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Re: THE GREAT SIM DEBATE

Quote:
Originally Posted by stewaat
Here is how I view "sim"
- If you exploit the game in any way, you are not sim.

I think it is as easy as that.
But the entire game is an exploit isn't it? Hitches are money against any defense. Flat WR is open. Deep WR is open. Just about any route is open against any defense. We haven't even gotten into the TE and RB routes which are money.

This game is not "sim". You have to have a 100 rules to make the game "sim". With that being said, your view of "sim" is incorrect sir, because every offensive pass play is an exploit.
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Old 06-16-2009, 05:55 PM   #40
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Re: THE GREAT SIM DEBATE

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe
Sim is trying to replicate what happens in the actually sport. Within the limits of a video game.

you want big plays a tad more than the norm because its a video game and not real life. But you dont want to play guys that abuse big play after big play, just to throw it in your face.
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