We Must Demand Better (A Patches discussion)

[VitaminKG21]

Quote: Originally Posted by jlfarris

PFFT! Half of the people who tell me how easy my job is can't even program "Hello World". (Now we'll find out who the programmers are here)

I love this. A thread like this gets started with the intention of there being at least a semi-civilized discussion about patches and the game being better and the OP and others get criticized for expecting too much and being all high-and-mighty about our gripes.

Then we get this kind of high-and-mighty response from someone who clearly thinks because he is a programmer he is so much better than us and we can never understand.

Why can't you just admit that the major problems with the game are there and shouldn't have been? I'm not even talking about anything gameplay-wise other than the unuseable sliders. Mostly just about the rosters, schedules, poor presentation, etc.

You have to admit, those are things that should and could be avoided.

[bigsmallwood]

Quote: Originally Posted by SoxFan01605

I see your point, but this is an exaggerated position IMO. To imply that if we don't know about the in's and outs of the industry we can't concern ourselves with quality is a bit much. If people are asking for something that hasn't ever been done, then sure...but there is such a thing as "frame of reference" in all of this. I am personally baffled by the lack of presentation, atmosphere, and detail in the NCAA games, for example. Now, I may not know how to program them in...but someone at EA should, given that they had much of that covered well in previous versions. I tend to agree with vitaminKG21 on that point at least...people use that "you're not a programmer card" a bit too much. As a customer, I don't need to have in-depth knowledge of the product...I just need to know how it compares to like items and if it's worth it to me. Obviously there are those on the extreme other end of the spectrum, but most reasonable people get frustrated because they have a frame of reference showing them what's possible. I understand you can't paint this with broad strokes, and I can certainly understand you being frustrated as someone in the industry. I just think it's a bit less black and white than you present it.

And I agree with both of you because IMO this "you don't program" stuff is OVERused. And for the matter of fact there are quite a few people who are programmers on here and others who may know/work closely with them...so that point has little to no relevance.

Just because you are not a chef does not mean you do not have the right to say there is something wrong with the soup.

[VitaminKG21]

Quote: Originally Posted by Bacardi151

I am going to derail the thread a little here for just a second. A developer (depending on role and other factors within the company they work for) don't have as much say as you think they do. Myself working my entire career as a programmer, working on the business side of programming (not gaming) there are managers, analysts, and business units who make decisions which might not allow a group of developers to do what is necessary or right. i cannot tell you how many times i have gone kicking and screaming into a meeting about something i want to implement correctly and i am told "no time, just do this" and you have little more say than to do what the people writing your checks are telling you to do. That said, i am sure the guys in the trenches ( devs, programmers, etc) know the right thing to do, but just cannot get it done due to factors out of their control. I don't know anyone who codes full time that does not want their creation to ship and work spotless; and if broken or not right, they want to make it better. Guess what? the decision makers ( the suits) usually dont see it that way, they see ROI and costs. Those are basic and simple items that occur on a daily basis with anyone who is working in a technology department and not their own boss. Sometimes you get lucky and everything falls into place, other times the business can work with the tech, and other times you catch lightning in a bottle. So please, don't make it out like the grunts arent doing what they are supposed to or dont want to give you everything and the kitchen sink. That is usually not the way it is. My comments go beyond NCAA, Tiburon And EA; I honestly think its the norm throughout the industry. Add to that complexities and timelines and you end up having the unfrotaune side -effect of things something being screwed up.

Fair enough. As I stated in my blog post from a few days ago, perhaps there are things outside of the control of those who physically make the games.

That's really too bad when other games from the same company are coming out with the potential to be classics.

[TimLawNYC]

Quote: Originally Posted by jlfarris

PFFT! Half of the people who tell me how easy my job is can't even program "Hello World". (Now we'll find out who the programmers are here)

Is it really necessary to "understand" though? Can't we criticize a product that we paid for because we don't feel it meets our expectations? I don't have a clue how to generate radiation from electrical power, but if I buy a microwave and it doesn't work, I'm certainly entitled to voice my displeasure and seek some remedy from the retailer or manufacturer responsible. What would happen if, say, Kenmore released an entire line of microwaves that were missing an essential radiation guard or something, but they sent them to retail anyway, thinking to themselves "Well, it's okay, because once the customers buy these and get them home, they'll figure out they don't work and call us, and we can send a repair guy out to install the necessary part to make the appliance work right"?

The reason we pay for things in our economy is because we don't know how to do those things ourselves, or because we feel it's cheaper in the long run for us to pay for those things. If I could program my own college football game, I would do it and save myself the $60 every year, but I don't know how to do that so I (actually we, collectively, as the community of consumers) pay EA, in essence, to do it for me. And if I'm unhappy with what they did, I am entitled to make my complaints heard, whether I "understand" the process of their work or not; I paid for a finished product and if that product does not work as advertised, I should have some recourse.

[VitaminKG21]

Quote: Originally Posted by mmorg

It's an inability to deliver technically. EA has a ton of money but they are always behind in terms of technology. They have a formula that allows them to make money but they are constantly lagging behind technically while companies like Bethesda and Rockstar are constantly implementing new technologies in their games and pushing the field into new levels of quality. It's just not as simple as adding lines of code to make games better. It is very easy to add just a few symbols that breaks the whole program. My brother-in-law is a programmer for one of the top software companies in the world and I have seen some of his work and it is amazing. What's even more amazing is the amount of work that goes into programs a lot less complex than a football game. I can only imagine how hard it is for them to make the football game they want to make. So not only are these guys not very experienced in their field but they don't even have top technology to work with to make their games. It's like trying to make a dish for a 5 star restaurant having never cooked before with week old ingredients.

Well that really sucks then doesn't it? Espcially when this is the only game in town when it comes to college football. Not much more to say than that.

[Kingfish]

The thing that gets me is it appears ALL companies now are using a system where the final stage of development as the "patching stage".

They KNOW they can't finish the game like they want in the time-frame they have so they just put the finishing touches after they release it. Its because they CAN patch it after release and its the process I have a problem with.

But, we as consumers just have now sucked it up and accept it...its like in the "get it out, get the revenue stream started and patch it later" business model of the 21st century. And I am not saying or pointing a finger at any one company...its ALL game designers from annual sports titles to epic MMOs. They all do it now.

[jlfarris]

Quote: Originally Posted by SoxFan01605

I see your point, but this is an exaggerated position IMO. To imply that if we don't know about the in's and outs of the industry we can't concern ourselves with quality is a bit much. If people are asking for something that hasn't ever been done, then sure...but there is such a thing as "frame of reference" in all of this. I am personally baffled by the lack of presentation, atmosphere, and detail in the NCAA games, for example. Now, I may not know how to program them in...but someone at EA should, given that they had much of that covered well in previous versions. I tend to agree with vitaminKG21 on that point at least...people use that "you're not a programmer card" a bit too much. As a customer, I don't need to have in-depth knowledge of the product...I just need to know how it compares to like items and if it's worth it to me. Obviously there are those on the extreme other end of the spectrum, but most reasonable people get frustrated because they have a frame of reference showing them what's possible. I understand you can't paint this with broad strokes, and I can certainly understand you being frustrated as someone in the industry. I just think it's a bit less black and white than you present it.

You know what kills me? Technology is the only field where people who have no idea what it takes still tell those who do that they are positive they know how to do it better. Do you have any clue how inserting code into one area of the program (say, presentation) can cause problems in what seems to be a completely unrelated area (for the sake of argument, let's say...sliders)? It's not as stinkin easy as every armchair IT person thinks it is. I'm so sick of people talking about how "this should be easy to implement" or "that's inexcusable" when frankly they have no clue what they're talking about. Critique the game all you want, but don't say that there's no reason that something was wrong in the code. This field is too intricate to generalize that easily.

Do I like that I'm waiting on a patch? No. I wish the game shipped like the patch will make it play. However, I'm not going to run my mouth on these boards on how easy it should have been - and I'm in this field! If I'm not willing to do that, what gives someone who can barely turn on a computer the right to blab how easy it should be to ship a perfect product out of the box?

[mmorg]

Quote: Originally Posted by VitaminKG21

Well that really sucks then doesn't it? Espcially when this is the only game in town when it comes to college football. Not much more to say than that.

Yeah it does suck. But that's the economy we live in today. The majority of companies are concerned more about their bottom-line than trying to be innovative in their field. Nothing is made of quality because companies need to maximize their profits and encourage consumers to by their next product with improving quality and technology. Very few companies exist today with the intention of forging ahead with new ideas and innovations, and it's sad.