Is this Cheese

[RynoAid]

Quote: Originally Posted by Ramminyou

I agree that it's probably for the best that you divorce yourself from the discussion until you actually address the point I was responding to rather than responding with indirect complaints about a separate issue.

They usually go hand in hand... but again argue with someone who takes themselves as seriously as you do... cause that ain't me playa...lol..

[Ramminyou]

Quote: Originally Posted by cr00v

I was a bit tipsy when I made that post, but frankly I'm sticking with it. Since apparently a lot of people still want the cheese, how about this: - EA creates a hardcore mode, where you're able to drop back 15 yards, consistently go for it on fourth down, etc. Leave Hardcore mode to the cheesers, and let them do what they please there. I remember Madden 09 had this, and it was beautiful. All of the cheesers stayed on HC, although there was a good amount of them in the regular mode as well, which brings me to my point... - The regular 'Play Now' mode should be dedicated to simulation football. They should not allow the QB to see the receivers if they do the 17 step drop. They could simply erase the icons, and tilt the camera down to where you make it impossible to throw the deep ball/post. I'll admit that I was a bit harsh by saying they shouldn't be allowed to throw at all, but there should definitely be some kind of barrier. They shouldn't be REWARDED by seeing the entire field and having more time. As for scrambling horizontally, that's fine since it's realistic, but they should be blind to the other side. Seems like a simple enough solution.

Now THAT is an actual solution. It attempts to create a restriction by simulating a realistic effect, instead of putting up a false barrier. That could definitely be effective and "sim" if implemented correctly.

I still disagree to this day that any "sim" game should put blanket restrictions on going for it on 4th Down or things like that, but that's another argument.

[Ramminyou]

Quote: Originally Posted by RynoAid

They usually go hand in hand... but again argue with someone who takes themselves as seriously as you do... cause that ain't me playa...lol..

I know they do, I admitted they sometimes do, but that's irrelevant. They're still exclusive issues, and it still had nothing to do with my point. I've given up trying to explain it to you.

[Palo20]

Here is the reason why it COULD be considered cheese or "un-sim:" Throwing velocities are too fast.

If a QB dropped back that far in real life, he would have no chance to make a throw before a defender made a play on it. In the game, you can still squeeze throws in there whether you're in the pocket, or 15 yards deep. And it's all because the ball comes out too fast.

If there was better variation between QB's arm strength and the velocities were toned down a bit, the 15 yard droppers would be throwing a lot more INTs.

Also, look at the deep out or comeback to the opposite hash. In real life, the QB generally has to roll with the pocket or at least have really good anticipation to make this throw. It's about a 30 yard bullet pass. This should be impossible to complete after dropping that far back.

[Pogo27]

Quote: Originally Posted by Double C

Simple tip but I guess most people (me included) don't think about that (moving forward within the pocket). Gotta give it a try...

If you don't move forward, you're not really in the pocket...

The thing is, the 3, 5, and 7 step drops are DESIGNED drops. While a quarterback may be looking upfield during his drop, he's never going to throw the ball before he takes all of his drop steps.

They're coordinated with the routes the receivers are running. It doesn't matter whether you're in a shotgun or under center. That has nothing to do with your drop. And 3, 5, 7 STEP doesn't necessarily mean yards. I'm not sure how many yards it is, and I don't actually count the steps any more...I practiced it so much that the timing is ingrained in my head.

What you need to read during your drop are two things.

1. Safety first! Easy to remember. Read the safeties. It's important to know whether you're looking at a cover 0, 1, 2, 3, or in rare cases 4. With practice, you can know this pretty well with the safeties first step (also your QBs first step) (Also, by the way, it's good to try noting blitzing corners).

2. Offensive/Defensive line battle. Specifically, the battle between the tackles and ends. When a tackle is winning the battle, he has pushed the end out, toward the sideline. When the end is winning the battle, he is maneuvering in, toward the pocket. This is essentially your second step.

3. Blitzes. Did some linebackers come that you weren't expecting? If so, expect trouble in the middle of the pocket. Either way, this is step 3. In 3-step drops, this is when you quit moving backwards. It's not really necessary to move forward after a 3-step drop, simply because the linemen will form the pocket around you here. However, 3-step drops go with short passes. These are slants and comebacks, etc. Almost any thing that can come up when you formation audible into a quick pass is a 3-step drop play. 1-2-3 steps, and pass. Be familiar enough with the play to know who is most likely to be open and make your reads quickly. Go through the progression, find the open receiver, and pass it to him. But by the time you start going through the progression on quick passes, your feet are already planted.

4. Offensive/defensive line again. 5-step drop plays are medium pass plays, and 7-step drops are for long pass plays. Either way, by the 4th step and beyond, your pocket is either forming nicely or collapsing horribly. In step 2, you checked to see which ends/tackles were winning/losing their battles. If you're only doing a 3-step drop, it's only important to note if there is an immediate threat. In 5 and 7 step drop plays however, you're going to have to utilize the pocket, so you need to know exactly where it is, and exactly where you are safe.

If both tackles are winning their battle against the ends, then just feel comfortable knowing that you can take your fifth step, then look downfield, step forward, make your reads, and hit your open receiver. However, if one tackle is winning his battle and the other is losing, you need to start taking your drop steps slightly toward the tackle who is winning his battle. You're helping your team in two ways by doing this. First, it gives the losing tackle more time to attempt gaining the upper hand, while also relieving some pressure on him, reducing his temptation to draw a holding penalty. And second, you're bringing yourself closer to the most likely escape route should you need to scramble. If BOTH tackles are losing their battles however, it's probably time to break off your drop and try rolling out of the pocket and prepare to throw the ball away. Alternatively, if you have a RB on a swing route, you can dump the ball to him. Either way, you're in trouble, so ignore whatever was initially planned.


5.a. This step is for the medium passes. Around the QB's 5th step, the WRs are about to make their cuts. Posts, ins, outs, corners, deep comebacks, etc. You should have made your fifth step just before they make their cut. So, plant your feet and look downfield. With training, you'll be able to quickly make the pre-cut reads to know which guy is going to be most open off his cut and you can start throwing the ball to him. If you can't find the open guy after planting, looking, and watching them cut, now it's time to step forward into the pocket and continue trying to find an open receiver. Standing in the pocket will allow you more time to look, and allow you a more accurate pass. Also, even if you are sacked, you're taking no more than a 5-yard loss.

5.b. & 6. This step is for the long passes. Steps five and six in 7-step drops are more of the same of step 4. We're continuing to feel our way around the offensive line. We can also take glances up field to begin making our reads, but if we're calling a deep pass play, we want to make sure we take our entire 7-step drop so our receivers can get downfield far enough to get the kind of yardage we wanted when we called a deep pass.

7. Plant & pass. Seven step drop pass plays are the ones you're most likely to spend the most time in the pocket. Heck, on a 3-step play, you should have passed the ball in less time it takes you to take all 7-steps, but additionally, in a 7-step drop, we're stepping forward, and we're going to be gathering a lot of those backward steps back before we're necessarily ready to throw the ball.



Ultimately, the point of the drops is two-fold. First, it helps the quarterback get far enough back from the pass rush that he's able to make a throw. Second, it helps the quarterback keep his timing with the WR routes. It's important that you always take the appropriate amount of drop, if for no other reason than to keep your timing right. However, after taking the drop, you need to not move at all or be moving forward into the pocket. Moving forward is generally safer as far as avoiding sacks (and the times you do get sacked, your QB will usually take less of a hit, making him safer), plus you'll lose less yardage when you are sacked.

Moving forward or standing still also tends to result in more accurate passes.

(Except perhaps with scrambling quarterbacks in NCAA, for some reason, they seem to make more accurate passes for me when I'm scrambling out of the pocket to the left our right...but still slightly forward--never backward).

[vusa92troy]

How about upping Pass Coverage and lowering QB Acc? While I appreciate the pontification on this subject, it is still a video game. I know that we all want the game to function as close to real sim as possible, how do we work with what we have now?

Thanks for everyone who joined into the conversation.