Roster Size... still 70 player max

[Solidice]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sandbox

But last gen didn't use Dual Layer DVDs either. It's definitely not a disc space problem; going by last year's game they still had approximately 900 Megabytes of free space on the DVD, more than enough for any roster increase.

some of the original xbox game had to be done on a dual layer DVD(not really sure about PS2 to be honest). I know of at least 1 game that got over 6 GBs of data(single disc), and there were several others over 5GB. If they were done in HD, it would very likely not fit on a single 360 disc. but for the most part, yeah, last-gen games were small enough to fit on a single-layer DVD disc.

but NCAA right now doesn't use 100% of the disc as it is(pretty close though). and once MS releases the next "big" system update that'll give the devs about an extra GB to work with due to a new disc imaging format they'll start using.

Quote: Originally Posted by Sandbox

It isn't memory either, what's loaded to the RAM when you play the game are textures for the players(remains unchanged even with roster increase; same number on the field), stadiums, crowd, grass etc. Though you're right the "chokepoint" of consoles is the RAM, but it's funny because I remember a couple years ago when devs were discussing why 3D grass was dropped after Madden 07 they alluded to the memory issue. I guess it's not an issue anymore, I wonder how that happened Tibouron? I mean consoles didn't all of a sudden grow memory.

well I believe both the consoles had firmware updates improve their memory management to allow more RAM for Dev usage, rather than system/operating system usage.

beyond that, better optimization and removing other things or lowering the quality of other things is probably were it came from. I know for NCAA '07 on 360, the stadium details were pretty crazy(in a good way). A lot of that detail was toned way down in '08 in order to get the frame rate to 60. while the stadium detail is nice now, I still don't think they are back to that point yet. But it has been a few years since I even put that disc in, so I could be misremembering.

Quote: Originally Posted by Sandbox

I watched the IGN videos and the dev mumbled that the problem was disc space, memory, and a save file issue. I guess their could be some type of save file limitation I am unaware of, but I doubt it. So in my opinion either the guy in the video doesn't know the real answer or he was being disingenuous.

I guess I missed that part. MS/Sony could have save file restrictions, but I don't see how that be it. roster file is 2 MB, the dynasty file is 7MB. some of the videos reach upwards to 32 MBs each.

I'm not really sure what the issue really is. I do remember that when they went from 55 player rosters to 70, they said that was a huge stretch for them. but unless they give an exact reason(which they probably never will), we probably will never find out.

[Sandbox]

Quote: Originally Posted by Solidice

some of the original xbox game had to be done on a dual layer DVD(not really sure about PS2 to be honest). I know of at least 1 game that got over 6 GBs of data(single disc), and there were several others over 5GB. If they were done in HD, it would very likely not fit on a single 360 disc. but for the most part, yeah, last-gen games were small enough to fit on a single-layer DVD disc.

You have a great memory, and you're right they're were a few games on both the PS2 and XBOX that used DVD9, though Tiboroun's games were not among them. And actually a few PS2 maddens were printed on a CD-ROM.

Quote: Originally Posted by Solidice

but NCAA right now doesn't use 100% of the disc as it is(pretty close though). and once MS releases the next "big" system update that'll give the devs about an extra GB to work with due to a new disc imaging format they'll start using.

not really all that close IMO, like I said they have about 850-900 Megabytes of free space on the DVD(way more than enough for expanded rosters). Last years game used exactly 89% of the disc space of an 8.5 GB dvd.

Quote: Originally Posted by Solidice

well I believe both the consoles had firmware updates improve their memory management to allow more RAM for Dev usage, rather than system/operating system usage.

This is true for the PS3 but not for the 360.

Quote: Originally Posted by Solidice

beyond that, better optimization and removing other things or lowering the quality of other things is probably were it came from. I know for NCAA '07 on 360, the stadium details were pretty crazy(in a good way). A lot of that detail was toned way down in '08 in order to get the frame rate to 60. while the stadium detail is nice now, I still don't think they are back to that point yet. But it has been a few years since I even put that disc in, so I could be misremembering.

You're right and I remember how good everything looked in the 07 versions.
Kinda offtopic, but what I was hinting at was how Tibouron frequently says it's an impossibility for them to accomplish something. Before Madden 10 they said they couldn't go back to 3d grass because of the framerate increase, hence the memory "issues". But now they have the memory "optimization" to enable 3d grass again but can't increase the rosters? Or how about how the football size just couldn't be changed but somehow this year it gets done.
Don't get me wrong I'm pleased these thing are changing for the better but I dislike being told it's impossible one year only to be done in another.
My guess, since people are being a bit more vocal about the roster size, it will be expanded come next year.

[buckeye02]

Hopefully NCAA will carry over more players when importing draft classes to Madden. If youre importing draft classes to Madden (which has expanded rosters) then teams and the free agent list may be slim.

[Solidice]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sandbox

not really all that close IMO, like I said they have about 850-900 Megabytes of free space on the DVD(way more than enough for expanded rosters). Last years game used exactly 89% of the disc space of an 8.5 GB dvd.

It's probably less than that. In one of the system updates for the 360(August of '09 I think), it reduced the amount of data installed onto the hard drive, then if you installed the game to your hard drive, the amount shown is not always the same amount that is on the disc. I think when it first came out was with NCAA 10, and it took off 400 or 500 MBs or something like that. not sure if there is a way to really test that(and it varied from game to game), at least not a way that can be discussed here.

also note that the developers were only able to use around 6.8GB of that space until the next 360 system update, which will include a new disc image format that gives devs roughly 7.8GBs to use. the rest of the disc is not usable to the devs.

Quote: Originally Posted by Sandbox

This is true for the PS3 but not for the 360.

you might be right, but I could have sworn that in one of the updates, the memory restricted to system use was lowered(I was probably just thinking about the change in the PS3 OS).

[Sandbox]

Quote: Originally Posted by Solidice

at least not a way that can be discussed here. also note that the developers were only able to use around 6.8GB of that space until the next 360 system update, which will include a new disc image format that gives devs roughly 7.8GBs to use. the rest of the disc is not usable to the devs.

Errr I know what you're describing, and it's where I'm getting my data.....
To hopefully put this to rest last year the NCAA devs used exactly 6.06 GB of 6.8 GB of available space. In my haste I wasn't as exact as I should have been and as such the devs have 740 Megabytes to work with. I was off by a 100 MBs or so.