AI, Animations & Momentum

[Gotmadskillzson]

I have some time to kill, so lets get to it.

Artificial Intelligence aka AI

This is the back bone of every game. Some serious flaws in the AI this year for NCAA 13 is ruining the over all fun of this game for me. Going to talk about some key areas of concern.

Running Logic

The way running backs and ball carriers in general choose their running lane is flawed and doesn't match up with their player tendency. There is no difference in the logic of a speed back from a balanced back from a power back to a full back. This defies the point of even having a player tendency classification if all 4 run the ball the same way.

Even more mind boggling is you have power backs and full backs juking and spinning way more then a speed back. But yet you have a speed back doing stiff arms and trying to run everybody over. Nobody plays to their strengths.

All ball carriers seem to suffer from tunnel vision. They pick a lane, which is usually the middle lane where all the traffic is and stay in it. They very rarely switch running lanes, cut back or choose the better hole. This was suppose to have been fixed in NCAA 11, but it never was. AI running has been the same for years now.

Better calculation need to be made and programmed of when a ball carrier should use special moves, the type of situation each special move should be performed and the chaining of special moves together need to happen. This is 2012, if NBA and FIFA games can chain special moves together, then so should a football game.

The way ball carriers determine what direction and what lane or lanes they choose to run need to be re-programmed as well. As it stands now, they simply just follow the play as it was designed. They don't think for themselves or have any type of situation awareness of what is going on in front of them or around them.

Wide Receiver AI Logic

There is none to be honest. They simply run the route as it was designed and just stand there. They are not aware of what is going on around them at all. You can clearly see this when a pass is intercepted because instead of the WR coming back to the ball, he just stand there with his hands up in the air, mean while the defensive back runs around him and intercepts the ball.

Wide receivers literally are oblivious to what is going on around them. They don't fight for the ball or attack it. Sure this year they actually jump, SOMETIMES, but more often then not they will just stand there like a bump on a log waiting for the ball to come hit them in their hands. They don't ever adjust to the defensive back that is standing directly in front of them.

Seems backward don't it to have the defensive back more aware of where the ball is going to land instead of the wide receiver. Defensive back adjust, why don't the WR ?

Quarterback AI Logic

Yes they scramble, but they too are now suffering from bad ball carrier vision like all the rest of the ball carriers in this game. Didn't use to be this way, in the beginning the QB was the best runner on the team, they changed running lanes and actually tried to score a TD on every scramble. Then the patches came and they totally messed it up, severely nerfed their scramble logic.

Another problem is the CPU QB pocket presence is pretty terrible and too predictable. They side step in the pocket back and forth like a ping pong ball before they eventually scramble right up the middle. It need to be more organic like the QBs in the Madden series.

QBs in the Madden series roll out, throw on the run, spin away from pressure in the backfield and when they do scramble, they actually try to score. When was the last time you seen a QB in the NCAA series actually roll out on a non designed roll out play ? And I mean actual ROLL OUT, not run sideways in a STRAIGHT LINE in slow motion like a damn turtle.

They debuted the shuffle pass.......how many times have you actually seen the QB even attempt a shuffle pass ? Want to know why you haven't ? Because the CPU QBs don't ever roll out and throw on the run.

Instead you get them either side stepping 7 steps to the left or right, come to a complete stop, then throw the ball or you will see them run in a straight line sideways, looking totally awkward, come to a complete stop, then throw the ball.

Zone Coverage AI

Safety play is just bad, no other way to say it. Their job is to be the deepest man on the field and nobody get behind them. Over the TOP help. This does not exist. Instead of being over the top, they be on the hip of the defensive back or end up trailing both the WR and the DB that ran right by them.

Makes no sense really to have zone problems in the game for 2 years in a row. And is just not 4 verticals or streak routes. It is ANY deep route and the safety just goes blind and let the WR run right pass him.

Offensive/Defensive Line AI

Pass blocking is suspect, particularly blocking from the guards and center. Way too often they let defensive tackles come free. And on running plays too often they miss blocks or simply either go too wide or not wide enough on some of the running plays.

Defensive ends, no pressure. Pretty much useless in the hands of the CPU. Complete kills the recruiting fun of a defensive end. Because you know in the end, it don't matter who you end up with, unless you user control him 100% of the time, he won't get no more then 3 or 4 sacks per a season on non blitz plays.

Play Calling AI

This was always bad. Once again it comes down to situation awareness. Knowing where you are on the field, the score, the time left on the clock, your personnel and your opponent's personnel. CPU call bad plays way too often. They don't exploit mismatches at all.

And what boggles my mind the most, I can be backed up on my 3 yard line, have to punt and they don't even call an all out punt block at all. Instead they call a regular punt formation. I just look at them and say wow, really ?

I am kicking out of my own end zone and you not even going to attempt to block my punt ? Play calling just need a complete overhaul.

Animations

Or should I say the LACK of them is really hurting this series. You ever get called for holding and then watch the instant replay zoomed in on the player that was called for it ? Yes I do it often and guess what ? There is no holding animation in the game at all.

You see no jersey being grabbed, no arm being pulled, nothing. You just see 2 players playing patty cake with each other and somebody just randomly gets called for holding.

Same thing for the lack of pass interference being called in this game. There are no animations for it. No jostling animation, no bumping, no push offs, no arm or jersey grabbing. All they have is that scripted jam animation at the line of scrimmage and that is it. After that it just a foot race from point A to point B.

So therefore the only way you going to see a pass interference being called in this game is if you either:

A) Tackle the WR while the ball is in the air.

B) You block the WR's path to keep him from running.

Moving on to the catch animations. 430 new catch animations. Really guys ? I mean really 430 ? Let us be honest here. How many different catch animations have you REALLY seen in this game ?

I've been playing this game on a daily basis since season ticket early release and here it is mid September and I can honestly say I seen around 13 or 14 different catch animations. With the same 4 or 5 catch animations 95% of the time.

Kind of weird considering for a game that touts 430 catch animations, you shouldn't see the same one twice for several games played. Every time you throw the ball you should see a new one. Hell I haven't even seen a bobbled catch or juggled catch, tip it to myself catch at all.

Moving on to the special moves animations. All of them need to be re-animated. Why does the elusive animation still come out as the truck stick animation years later ? I remember developers talking about this on OS back in 2008 and it is still in the game the same way.

Juke move and spin move....replace them, re-animate them. Have various animations of them. I don't know why EA has one set of animations for everybody with no variations of them. Not everybody spins, jukes, stiff arms the same. Nor do players of different body types run the same or throw the ball the same way or carry the ball the same way.

If you can add 430 catch animations, you trying to tell me you can't add at least 10 different juke, spin, throwing, running and tackle animations ?? Couldn't add a jostling or jersey grabbing animation ? FIFA has had the jostling and jersey grabbing animation in their game for 3 years now.

Of all the tech you could have acquired from other EA studios, you guys choose to acquire a paratrooper animation from Battlefield ? Something that doesn't even enhance game play at all.

Moving on to tackling.....need way more animations. Too many forearm shot tackles and two handed push tackles. Not enough wrap tackles and very few gang tackles. Vast majority of tackles are solo tackles.

Then the logic for tackling is flawed. A smaller defender should go low on a bigger ball carrier. More wrap tackles around the player's legs and waist. Stop with the over done I'm going to grab them by the their shoulder pads and just fling them to the ground.

Not everybody is Ndamonkung Suh and have the strength to fling people to the ground like that. And to see a defensive back do it to a RB that out weighs him is just plain silly and defy all logic. That should be a very RARE animation where only players with 90 strength or above should be able to pull off.

Add some big RB or big FB dragging a smaller defender for extra yards animations. This game lacks struggle animations in tackles. It is like they get hit, they either go down or the defender completely bounces off of the ball carrier. Where is the struggle ? Tackling isn't so black and white like that.

Momentum

This need to be addressed. Many have said for years, once EA get physics, it will be in the game. That isn't true, Madden 13 has it and you still see players changing directions on a dime.

You have an acceleration rating, how about adding a deceleration rating ? It will determine how fast it takes a player to come to a complete stop obviously. But I have an example of how it would work.

Take a 300 pound defensive lineman. Because of his size, his deceleration rating would be a 20. Which would mean it will take him a while to come to a complete stop. Which would mean if you tried to do a sudden change of direction with him, his momentum will continue carrying him in the initial direction he was going and he would stumble and maybe fall because of it.

Where as an agile player would have a high deceleration rating, would be able to come to a complete stop quicker and therefore change directions quicker.

In real life you see ball carriers stop and go all the time to fake out the pursuing defenders. Being they don't know exactly when he might stop, when he does stop and go, the defenders naturally stop and go as well.

This does not happen in NCAA or Madden. Defenders don't react naturally to stop and go movement, nor do they react naturally to cut backs, juke moves or spin moves.

In NCAA and Madden defenders don't slow down one bit. They cut when you cut, they change directions when you do. Perfect mirror reflection by the whole defense. This need to change.

If I cut back, the whole entire defense shouldn't automatically ALL CUT BACK AT THE EXACT SAME TIME.. You see this in special teams, you see it on running plays. There needs to be a delay between the action of a ball carrier and reaction of the defender.

In the game, it is INSTANT. Instant reaction, instant correction. Not realistic at all. What is the point having a 93 agility running back if a freaking linebacker can cut back just as good and just as fast ?

Fake out logic and fake out animations need to be in the game.

Conclusion

Better AI for all players with better situation awareness of what is happening around them. Better ball carrier logic and better decision making when it comes to choosing running lanes and special move usage. Better play calling. More animations and more variety of animations for running styles, throwing style, spin moves, juke moves.

Stop the player mirroring in all aspects. If I weave to the right, I shouldn't see 11 defenders weaving to the right all at the same time as me like we doing synchronized dancing.

The goal for all ball carriers should be to score a TD. They need to run with a purpose. Stop with lemming mentality of well the play was designed for me to run this direction so I'm going to follow it and stay on a straight line despite what I see in front of me.

They need to weave in and out of running lanes, always going towards daylight and always trying to score a TD. Chain special moves usage together.

TD or bust. That should be the CPU AI ball carrier mentality.

[bruinkid626]

Have not read your entire post yet, but wide receivers do show that they have some AI after their route is finished. I've had plenty of times where my wide receivers would run their route, but still be covered. They would then run to an open part of the field for a huge play.

[Gotmadskillzson]

Quote: Originally Posted by bruinkid626

Have not read your entire post yet, but wide receivers do show that they have some AI after their route is finished. I've had plenty of times where my wide receivers would run their route, but still be covered. They would then run to an open part of the field for a huge play.

Those are your WRs and sure you could use game plan to change their behavior. How ever the CPU really don't make use of the game plan feature like they should.

[carnalnirvana]

as usual spot on post skillz,

my only gripe this year is the cpu playcalling...especially on 3rd and long...

the cpu ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS call 4 verticals... pre patch it was always a screen....

this logic is so broken and scripted i created a playbook with no 4 verts for the cpu, NONE and they still ran it on 3rd and anything over 8...

its getting boring watching the cpu go 3-10 on third downs, i am playing a game right now WVU vs BC(me) they were in the redzone 3rd and 13 and they called a 4 vertical then after the routes all finish they throw a jump ball to bailey which got pickd...

its getting stupid playing this game at this point,

[XSmooth]

Didn't read the whole thing, but as far as the WRs not coming back to the ball and it becomes an interception...hell you can watch any NFL game and probably see that... TV and radio commentators mention "if only he came back to the ball" 2-3 times a game (not always for an INT, mostly for knockdowns). It happens in the NFL, so it definitely happens in college.

And on a bigger point I never got that argument. If you run back toward the ball that means even if you caught it your momentum is going to take you closer to the line of scrimmage, you have to stop and do a 180...let's face it if your route originally had you at 7 yards, you come back to the ball you'll be lucky to get 3. Sure, a 3 yard gain is better than an INT...but if it's 3rd down and coming back to the ball causes you to be short then you've accomplished nothing but 3 yards to your stats. Blah.

[Haze88]

Quote: Originally Posted by Gotmadskillzson

If I cut back, the whole entire defense shouldn't automatically ALL CUT BACK AT THE EXACT SAME TIME.. You see this in special teams, you see it on running plays. There needs to be a delay between the action of a ball carrier and reaction of the defender. In the game, it is INSTANT. Instant reaction, instant correction. Not realistic at all. What is the point having a 93 agility running back if a freaking linebacker can cut back just as good and just as fast ? Fake out logic and fake out animations need to be in the game.

I said this in my post on the wishlist forum. The reason for the lack of spectacular plays is because there is 0 required reaction time for the CPU. They react to your controller and not the player on the field

[Gotmadskillzson]

Quote: Originally Posted by carnalnirvana

as usual spot on post skillz, my only gripe this year is the cpu playcalling...especially on 3rd and long... the cpu ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS call 4 verticals... pre patch it was always a screen.... this logic is so broken and scripted i created a playbook with no 4 verts for the cpu, NONE and they still ran it on 3rd and anything over 8... its getting boring watching the cpu go 3-10 on third downs, i am playing a game right now WVU vs BC(me) they were in the redzone 3rd and 13 and they called a 4 vertical then after the routes all finish they throw a jump ball to bailey which got pickd... its getting stupid playing this game at this point,

Main reason why I gave up on custom playbooks. What is the point of making one and then assigning one to the CPU if they don't even follow it ? Defeats the purpose of making one.

I also wish they would follow the way Madden does editing playbooks. Where everything is broken down by down and distance to go. Then you get to prioritize which plays you want to be more likely to be ran for that particular situation.

[Buckeye Country]

In your opinion do you think the AI was better in 12 or 13? How about 11?

I like 11 better, but haven't gone back to it cause I like the ability to customize conferences and player editing. The deep ball, tendency issue, and a lack of fumbles killed 12 for me.

I have all kinds of issues with 13. The sliders do not do what they are supposed to do, they are broken. The deep ball, CPU running game, CPU AI is weak, the autopass and coach mode hum passing accuracy is way too good and sliders don't do a darn thing to fix it.

Did you like 12 or 11 better than 13?