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Spear · 12-31-2003, 05:33 PM

In Madden, I created a WR who was about 5'6 he had good stats but he still had troubles because he was so small.

twharry · 12-31-2003, 06:02 PM

ODogg,

So you are saying that if you try to score a TD, with just a CB between you and the endzone and your only option is to run him over and you are running at full speed, it should not matter if you are using Stephen Jackson or some 5'5" 160lb HB?

Sorry, but in the real world, no matter what your strength is, if you are 235lbs and you are running at full speed, assuming your full speed is the same as the 160lb back (which is a big assumption to make), the 235lb back will run with far more force than the 160lb back just because of body mass and momentum.

In-game speed should be absolute. 99SP for a 160lb CB should have the player move at the same speed as 99SP on a 250lb back. However, if you make a player 10lbs heavier, his SP rating should automatically decrease, because it requires more physical effort to achieve the same speed because of the added mass.

That way, you can still have your Jevon Kearse's, and still have a bit of realism.

Vince · 12-31-2003, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Klue516 said:
you need help!

seriosuly

jt533 · 01-02-2004, 03:28 PM

I really think the physics enginen needs rehauled. I think attributes should be used for like sized players (6' RB LBS taking on a 6' 220 LBS LB) but what I hate is when a RB stiff arms my lineman who is 350 and it kncoks him over without slowing down the RB at all. Also when you get tackled from behind sometimes you fall backwards? Physically impossible yet happens. I really wish they would include size into the equation and the direction you are traveling and speed to get some of the physics right.

ODogg · 01-02-2004, 09:10 PM

I agree guys, the physics engine does need looked at. However I still believe the basic way EA does it, with attributes being tied to ratings and not physical appearance is the correct way. How someone looks does affect their attributes of course but by tying it heavily to looks you are really limiting the types of players you can create and have. For example, in the real college game you have corners who are 5'10 that can outjump WR's who are 6'2". Just looking at a guy and saying he's taller should not mean he can automatically jump higher.

To illustrate my point: I played football in high school and I was a smaller, thin guy. But I and the rest of the team was often outrun quite a bit of times in practice by a hugely fat, squatty looking guy who had a big ol' huge gut that hung over his belly (his nickname was Tank if that tells you anything). He was our best football player and just didn't play how he looked at all, he had WR speed. He had power AND speed with acceleration, something that by using the system of physical appearance would really lmiit. In this system this guy would be forced to be slower than a smaller, thin guy like myself.

It should be affected mildly, I admit, but the system needs tweaked, not completely changed as some people seem to imply they want in this thread.

As for the analogy of having a 350 pound defensive end in space with a small linebacker and having him stiff arm him and bowl him over, I agree it needs addressed but in real football you do see freaky things like that happen sometimes too. EA does need to adjust things like this so they happen less frequently though no question.

twharry · 01-02-2004, 11:06 PM

Quote:

ODogg said:
I agree guys, the physics engine does need looked at. However I still believe the basic way EA does it, with attributes being tied to ratings and not physical appearance is the correct way. How someone looks does affect their attributes of course but by tying it heavily to looks you are really limiting the types of players you can create and have. For example, in the real college game you have corners who are 5'10 that can outjump WR's who are 6'2". Just looking at a guy and saying he's taller should not mean he can automatically jump higher.

But if someone is 6'5" and has a vertical leap of 40 inches, he should be able to reach higher than someone who is 5'10" with a 40 inch vertical.

rns · 01-03-2004, 12:12 AM

They definitely could and should make height matter. A player's ratings will be his ratings, but a 5'9" receiver shouldn't be able to out reach good coverage (at least not often) for a reception, unless his jumping rating is really good AND he actually skies for the reception. Athletic receivers with 6'3" frames are covetted... but in this game that doesn't matter? That stinks.

Incorporating mass seems tougher though.

ODogg · 01-03-2004, 12:51 AM

Quote:

twharry said:

Quote:

ODogg said:
I agree guys, the physics engine does need looked at. However I still believe the basic way EA does it, with attributes being tied to ratings and not physical appearance is the correct way. How someone looks does affect their attributes of course but by tying it heavily to looks you are really limiting the types of players you can create and have. For example, in the real college game you have corners who are 5'10 that can outjump WR's who are 6'2". Just looking at a guy and saying he's taller should not mean he can automatically jump higher.

But if someone is 6'5" and has a vertical leap of 40 inches, he should be able to reach higher than someone who is 5'10" with a 40 inch vertical.

Yes, that is correct and vertical leap is based on the JMP rating. Again it has to come back to a rating. Although as I've said, the actual physical characteristics should adjust it though if you change them or at least have a toggle for on/off. For example, if you get a 189 pound WR with a speed of 99 and you make him say...245-250 then his speed could be affected and drop down a little bit to 90.

However this should be a game toggle so if you liked you could edit physical characterisitics and not affect ratings. The reason I say that is we had a debate similar to this before in regards to Madden. It was the debate about "should editing ratings affect player salary". Some people wanted to edit ratings as they saw fit and not have the salary go up real high. Others said it was unrealistic to be able to edit and make a player better without also increasing their salary because in real life better players will get paid more.

So yeah I can see both sides of the fence on this issue, I see where you guys are coming from. However I can see why EA has it how they do. I would like a toggle for this option and let people do what they like. More options are always better.

12-31-2003, 05:33 PM	#9
Spear Video Game Dev OVR: 19 Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 4,429	Re: Size does not matter In Madden, I created a WR who was about 5'6 he had good stats but he still had troubles because he was so small.

12-31-2003, 06:02 PM	#10
twharry Banned OVR: 2 Join Date: Dec 2003	Re: Size does not matter ODogg, So you are saying that if you try to score a TD, with just a CB between you and the endzone and your only option is to run him over and you are running at full speed, it should not matter if you are using Stephen Jackson or some 5'5" 160lb HB? Sorry, but in the real world, no matter what your strength is, if you are 235lbs and you are running at full speed, assuming your full speed is the same as the 160lb back (which is a big assumption to make), the 235lb back will run with far more force than the 160lb back just because of body mass and momentum. In-game speed should be absolute. 99SP for a 160lb CB should have the player move at the same speed as 99SP on a 250lb back. However, if you make a player 10lbs heavier, his SP rating should automatically decrease, because it requires more physical effort to achieve the same speed because of the added mass. That way, you can still have your Jevon Kearse's, and still have a bit of realism.

12-31-2003, 06:09 PM	#11
Vince Bow for Bau OVR: 28 Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Montreal Posts: 26,017	Re: Size does not matter Quote: *Klue516 said:* you need help! seriosuly

01-02-2004, 03:28 PM	#12
jt533 Nrd lrt! OVR: 5* Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Tigard, OR Posts: 483	Re: Size does not matter I really think the physics enginen needs rehauled. I think attributes should be used for like sized players (6' RB LBS taking on a 6' 220 LBS LB) but what I hate is when a RB stiff arms my lineman who is 350 and it kncoks him over without slowing down the RB at all. Also when you get tackled from behind sometimes you fall backwards? Physically impossible yet happens. I really wish they would include size into the equation and the direction you are traveling and speed to get some of the physics right.

01-02-2004, 09:10 PM	#13
ODogg Hall Of Fame OVR: 51 Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 37,300 Blog Entries: 8	Re: Size does not matter I agree guys, the physics engine does need looked at. However I still believe the basic way EA does it, with attributes being tied to ratings and not physical appearance is the correct way. How someone looks does affect their attributes of course but by tying it heavily to looks you are really limiting the types of players you can create and have. For example, in the real college game you have corners who are 5'10 that can outjump WR's who are 6'2". Just looking at a guy and saying he's taller should not mean he can automatically jump higher. To illustrate my point: I played football in high school and I was a smaller, thin guy. But I and the rest of the team was often outrun quite a bit of times in practice by a hugely fat, squatty looking guy who had a big ol' huge gut that hung over his belly (his nickname was Tank if that tells you anything). He was our best football player and just didn't play how he looked at all, he had WR speed. He had power AND speed with acceleration, something that by using the system of physical appearance would really lmiit. In this system this guy would be forced to be slower than a smaller, thin guy like myself. It should be affected mildly, I admit, but the system needs tweaked, not completely changed as some people seem to imply they want in this thread. As for the analogy of having a 350 pound defensive end in space with a small linebacker and having him stiff arm him and bowl him over, I agree it needs addressed but in real football you do see freaky things like that happen sometimes too. EA does need to adjust things like this so they happen less frequently though no question.

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01-02-2004, 11:06 PM	#14
twharry Banned OVR: 2 Join Date: Dec 2003	Re: Size does not matter Quote: *ODogg said:* I agree guys, the physics engine does need looked at. However I still believe the basic way EA does it, with attributes being tied to ratings and not physical appearance is the correct way. How someone looks does affect their attributes of course but by tying it heavily to looks you are really limiting the types of players you can create and have. For example, in the real college game you have corners who are 5'10 that can outjump WR's who are 6'2". Just looking at a guy and saying he's taller should not mean he can automatically jump higher. But if someone is 6'5" and has a vertical leap of 40 inches, he should be able to reach higher than someone who is 5'10" with a 40 inch vertical.

01-03-2004, 12:12 AM	#15
rns Rookie OVR: 2 Join Date: Dec 2003	Re: Size does not matter They definitely could and should make height matter. A player's ratings will be his ratings, but a 5'9" receiver shouldn't be able to out reach good coverage (at least not often) for a reception, unless his jumping rating is really good AND he actually skies for the reception. Athletic receivers with 6'3" frames are covetted... but in this game that doesn't matter? That stinks. Incorporating mass seems tougher though.

01-03-2004, 12:51 AM	#16
ODogg Hall Of Fame OVR: 51 Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 37,300 Blog Entries: 8	Re: Size does not matter Quote: *twharry said:* Quote: *ODogg said:* I agree guys, the physics engine does need looked at. However I still believe the basic way EA does it, with attributes being tied to ratings and not physical appearance is the correct way. How someone looks does affect their attributes of course but by tying it heavily to looks you are really limiting the types of players you can create and have. For example, in the real college game you have corners who are 5'10 that can outjump WR's who are 6'2". Just looking at a guy and saying he's taller should not mean he can automatically jump higher. But if someone is 6'5" and has a vertical leap of 40 inches, he should be able to reach higher than someone who is 5'10" with a 40 inch vertical. Yes, that is correct and vertical leap is based on the JMP rating. Again it has to come back to a rating. Although as I've said, the actual physical characteristics should adjust it though if you change them or at least have a toggle for on/off. For example, if you get a 189 pound WR with a speed of 99 and you make him say...245-250 then his speed could be affected and drop down a little bit to 90. However this should be a game toggle so if you liked you could edit physical characterisitics and not affect ratings. The reason I say that is we had a debate similar to this before in regards to Madden. It was the debate about "should editing ratings affect player salary". Some people wanted to edit ratings as they saw fit and not have the salary go up real high. Others said it was unrealistic to be able to edit and make a player better without also increasing their salary because in real life better players will get paid more. So yeah I can see both sides of the fence on this issue, I see where you guys are coming from. However I can see why EA has it how they do. I would like a toggle for this option and let people do what they like. More options are always better.

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Size does not matter