My Final HC09 Sliders

[picker19]

After 6+ years of constantly playing this game, I think it's time I retire. I just spent several days testing sliders without the CPU and USER being the same (again), and I have concluded that there's no way to make the CPU better than the USER with sliders. The sliders are so broken. It's such a shame that they gave up on this game just a month or so after its release and didn't patch it one more time.

Anyway, the game is just way too easy for me, so I'm going to take a break and give Madden 15 a try for a bit. But I wanted to part with some interesting things I learned from my slider testing:

• With USER sliders all at zero, it made the defense worse (on both sides). Makes no sense, I know, but my offense couldn't be stopped. Naturally, it seemed to impact the CPU more than the USER (go figure), but it did affect both sides, just the CPU more.
• I did the opposite and put the USER offensive sliders to 100 and the opposite happened. The defense (again on both sides) came to life and it was much harder to run/pass against.
• I couldn't find a pattern doing the same with the defensive sliders. Sometimes, it looked like it boosted the defense on both sides, and other times made it worse. It was much harder to see a clear affect.
• My suggestion is if you don't want "funky" things happening, keep sliders between 20 and 80. Not saying it's a hard rule, because my last set had INT at 0/1 (and it worked keeping INTs down), but the gameplay seems to be off when you get towards the upper/lower ends of the sliders.
• And again, defensive sliders at 0/1 (USER/CPU) is the lowest you can make a slider. Don't do 0/0 or 1/1. It does the opposite of what you think. But somehow having 0/1 completely drops that slider to its lowest point. I have confirmed this with both INT and BBL sliders.
• As mentioned above, certain sliders affect more than what you think. We all know lowering QBA also lowers THP. But as I said above, lowering BBL also lowered tackling. And I've known for a long time that lowering AWR also lowers tackling (and probably other things).

Anyway, if anyone out there finds a way to make the CPU better with sliders, please tell us, but I don't think it's possible. So, either you have to play with house rules, or just accept that you'll be winning the Super Bowl often.

[jlech1805]

Sorry to see you retire. I've been forced out due to a dead PS3.

I've never found sliders to make the game consistently harder.

I have a number of ways with a custom roster to make the game harder.

The easiest of which is to give all non Human Coaches perfect ratings and start off with a create-a-coach head coach and nothing higher than 3's for assistants.

Combine this with giving each team usable playbooks and the game can become challenging.

[picker19]

I actually may be coming back! I've been playing Madden 15, and I have to say, despite all the flash and new features, etc., it just can't beat HC09 overall. There were tons of bugs and even with the new patch that came out, it didn't fix some critical ones. Also, I know it probably doesn't mean a lot to many people, but being a usability engineer, I can't help but notice a lot of poor design/flow issues in M15, whereas HC09 may not be pretty, but it's so simple to use and the flow is perfect going from menu to menu. I'm probably going to trade M15 in. I felt like I was forced to like it, whereas HC09 I loved from Day 1.

So anyway, a couple weeks ago, after getting disgusted with M15, I went back and started screwing around the HC09 sliders again. I didn't have any hope of new ideas, I was just bored one day and missed the game. But on a whim, after screwing around with a few different sets, I decided to turn all USER sliders to zero. I've done it before, and didn't notice any good results. But I kept coming back to my INT sliders and how I found that USER at 0 and CPU at 1 finally lowered INTs for me. So, I decided to start a career with all USER sliders = 0 and then adjusting CPU sliders to what I thought would work well.

I started a career with the Bears with a brand new playbook and coach. So naturally, for the first half of the career, my team stunk. I think I was 2-6. And usually by the half way point once my team knows the playbook well, I start kicking butt. But that didn't happen. By the end of the season, I was 4-12. In 6 years of playing, only once did I have a record that low.

I started Year 2 a few days ago, and I'm only 1-4 to start. My only win was a nail biter to the 4th quarter, almost losing to the Lions with only a 3 point difference, and I was down by 14 entering the 4th.

In my typical long-winded way, what I'm trying to say is that maybe, JUST MAYBE, having USER sliders at zero actually works. I can't say for certain, because I want to put another couple years under my belt before I make any claims, but without fail in Year 2, I always make the playoffs. This time, I doubt it.

So, here's the deal: CPU sliders control both teams. We've established that many times over. CPU sliders "visually" impact the gameplay (e.g., lower USER QA and you see nothing...lower CPU QA and you clearly see the difference). But I'm beginning to wonder if USER sliders impact the "math" behind the scenes.

My second observation is that the only USER slider that I see impacting the CPU is tackling. I only say this because the CPU misses just as may tackles as I do. But otherwise, I can't explain why I'm 6-16 so far, even after I improved my coaching staff, playbook knowledge, and roster talent.

Anywho, I'm not making any bold predictions or claims...at least not yet. I've been all over the place with my crazy slider theories the past several years, and I'm waiting for something to prove me wrong. But it at least has given me a sliver of hope that I can get back into this game.

If anyone is interested, here are the sliders I'm using right now. I'll play a few more years and then I'll post my results.

ALL USER SLIDERS = 0 (except ST sliders)
CPU SLIDERS...
QA = 40
PB = 50
WR = 50
RA = 50
RB = 80
AWR = 50
KD = 50
INT = 1
BB = 50
TKL = 50
FGA =50
FGP = 50
PA = 90
PP = 90
KP = 30

BTW...I may end up lowering Run Blocking. I can't stop the run (nor can the CPU). In Year 2, I gave up 500 rushing yards in the last 3 games. Sure, I'm running a Tampa 2 D with more speed players, but that's a lot in just 3 games.

[picker19]

For anyone still out there on this forum (and even reading this thread), I wanted to provide an update on my results per my last post (with all USER sliders at 0). I just started Year 3 (lost my first game), but to date my record has been Year 1 = 4-12 and Year 2 = 6-10. That's never happened to me before. Usually in Year 2, I'm in the playoffs. I'm starting to believe that this might actually work in making the game harder for me.

I will say this...there are lots of broken tackles by the RBs and lots of TFLs, but some how the running game still works out (stats-wise) in the end. Kind of balances each other out. I actually have to watch out for the CPU's run game now. Passing game is also toned down, although INTs can be a bit much, especially if you have a crappy QB who doesn't know the playbook.

The bottom line is just put all USER sliders to zero (haven't done this yet for the ST sliders) and then tweak the CPU ones to your liking. My slider set is still the same as above. I may increase TKL to 60, but I'm afraid that will kill the run game. Sometimes little tweaks change everything.

I'll report back again...

[jlech1805]

What type of playbooks are you using?

From what I remember inside blitzing kills absolutely kills the CPU running game.

Nice to see a struggle, I might have to buy a used PS3 and get back to this game.

[picker19]

I've been testing this out with the Bears (modified roster) using a Tampa 2 defense, so definitely, that's going to make it harder to stop the run.

So far, so good with the sliders. I did very well in Year 3 -- went 13-3 -- but there were only a couple blowout wins. Most of my wins were within 10 points or less...and two were won literally in the final minute. So, even though my record was great, I had to work hard to make it happen. I also noticed the main reason for my turnaround in Year 3 was clearly due to hiring a DC with a 5 performance skill, play call and strategy. I had one of the worst defenses in Year 1 and 2, but once I hired this guy, I went to Top 15. If I didn't have him, I would assume more losses.

I do need to test these sliders out more and with more teams, but at this point, I have more confidence in saying that having the User sliders at 0 seems to even things out a bit more. It most certainly does not make the game impossible nor does it even suddenly make the game so much more challenging, but it appears to be "more fair," if that makes sense. Most games require me to really work hard at a win.

[picker19]

For what it's worth, I'm providing my latest career update using all USER sliders at 0. Just finished Year 6 with the Bears with a spread offense and Tampa 2 defense. Here's my record to date.

• Year 1 = 4 - 12
• Year 2 = 6 - 10
• Year 3 = 13 - 3 (won Super Bowl)
• Year 4 = 13 - 3 (lost Divisional Playoff game)
• Year 5 = 13 - 3 (lost Conference Playoff game)
• Year 6 - 13 - 3 (playing wild card round now)

At the start of Year 3, I was able to hire a new DC with a 5 Play Call, 5 Strategy, and 5 Performance. Once that happened, my defense became amazing and I won like crazy. It's the main reason I've been able to do so well. In 2 of my 4 winning seasons, my offense was just average...it was my defense that made up for my offensive mistakes and crippled the CPU. That's not to say I didn't have bad games, but rarely had to score more than 24 points to win.

The other thing is that as I mentioned above, a good % of my wins were done in the final minutes with some last minute heroics (luck). Especially in Year 3 and 4, I won most of my games by 7 points or less. Most were very close games. In Years 5 and 6, I still had a few close games, but most were won by the end of the 3rd quarter.

Overall, I have confirmed what I've known for a while...Playbook Knowledge and Performance are the two most influential/powerful factors in the game. Usually I'm slow to start in the early part of the season due to lower play knowledge, but my Week 5 I'm running at full steam. And I've seen with many of my coaches, not just my DC, that once I increased Performance, wins and overall player stats clearly went up. So, if you want more of a challenge and like to use "house rules," definitely curb increasing any Learning or Performance skills for your coaches.

And one last note: another observation is that it seems that with this slider set, offenses are "even" but defense favors the USER. I seem to be on equal footing offensively with teams that have similarly good (or bad) offenses, but on defense, I don't need tons of special skills or great players to be effective. I don't know if it's just bad CPU AI on offense or the USER defense gets a boost, but whatever it is, I've learned to focus more on building up my offense first.

I'm curious to see results from using other teams, but I'm assuming the same results -- great challenge with poor to average coaching and poor to average play learning, but once you boost up your coaches and playbook knowledge, you'll remain a dominant team.

[Gbeo778]

This thread may not be active but I applaud your hard work and I still play HC09 to this day.