Question on 4-3 Over/Under Formation

[picker19]

There are a number of 4-3 plays, both man and zone, that have an outside linebacker on the line with the DL, both in a under and over formation. From a defensive strategy standpoint, when would you want to use these over/under formations versus the standard 4-3 formation with all LBs behind the DL? Is having the OLB on the line supposed to be better against the run? And where is it best to line up that OLB? Should he be lined up over the TE, for instance?

Conversely, if you're playing against a 4-3 over/under formation, would it be better to run to the side where the OLB is on the line or the opposite side?

Overall, just trying to better understand the strategic advantages/disadvantages to the 4-3 over/under formations. Thanks.

[ShakaFlocka]

Re: Question on 4-3 Over/Under Formation

As a general rule in coaching, you run away from the stack.

The Over against a basic Iformation with the TE set right will be untouched at the line of scrimmage. You don't want to run at him unless you're trapping him.

The Under against a basic Iformation with the TE set right will be stacked on the End. You can run at him if you want, but this is your best chance to run weak as it's 2 on 2 out there and you have your lead fullback.

The rule is, Run Away from Over/Under but not so much that you're predictable. In a video game, you're less likely to be predictable lol.

[picker19]

Re: Question on 4-3 Over/Under Formation

OK, that makes sense. So what about on defense? When do you want to use an over/under formation? What are its advantages defensively?

[ShakaFlocka]

Re: Question on 4-3 Over/Under Formation

As a rule, if you believe it to be a run you want to align in an Over formation. If you believe it to be a pass, you want to align yourself in an Under formation.

I'll use a late 90's, early 2000's Tampa 2 reference regarding the Buccaneeers. They did this perfectly.

An over will line your best defensive tackle, like Warren Sapp, in the 1 technique between the Center-Weakside Gaurd. Your grunt defensive tackle, like Booger McFarland, would line up in the 3 technique to the strong side. This matches strength to the strong side while allowing your best pass rusher(think speed) backside responsibility and following the guard if he pulls. This results in a better run defense as your tackling DT is aligned to that side and your speed DT is your trail guy wracking up the cutbacks in pursuit.

An under alignment has your best defensive tackle, like Warren Sapp, on the opposite side of the Center on the strong side 1 technique. Your "Booger McFarland" will play the 3 technique to the weakside this time.You are vulnerable to the run as you leave the B and C gap entirely up to the Linebackers but you provide yourself 1 on 1 opportunities against the pass with your best tackle taking any potential double block(as he should, and can beat them). The best part of this is that your weak side end, lined up against the Left Tackle, gets a 1 on 1 matchup.

This is how Simeon Rice has much success in Tampa and why Dwight Freeney sees similar success in Indianapolis(with the later arrival of Robert Mathis).

Here is a diagram to help out:

[ShakaFlocka]

Re: Question on 4-3 Over/Under Formation

I should add that my advice in my first post was entirely geared towards defeating the stack in a 3-4 defense. I misread your first post and gave bad information.

Against a 3-4, what I explained is a good rule.

Against a 4-3, as shown in this diagram... You want to run at the strength of your line against a 4-3 under and add protection if it's a pass. You want to run to the weakside of Overs. A 4-3 Over is good to counter out of.

Sorry for the confusion. My entire initial post was geared towards the "untouched" linebacker in 3-4 Over and Unders haha.

[tarek]

Re: Question on 4-3 Over/Under Formation

This is a brilliant thread once more. So I hope there is a place for my stupid question which is as follows:

Which OLB stays on the field by default in a 4-2-5 Nickel? The Right or Left. I asks because my ROLB Karlos Dansby is my best outside linebacker so I want him on the field more than all others, but if by default he sits in a nickel and some other chump plays then I'm considering changing his position to LOLB so he plays more. Good move?

[picker19]

Re: Question on 4-3 Over/Under Formation

I'm not sure what OLB stays in that formation, but if he does end up sitting, I'd personally just change him in the depth chart versus editing his position, since that will put his production grade down to zero and thus reduce his overall.

[ShakaFlocka]

Re: Question on 4-3 Over/Under Formation

This is a brilliant thread once more. So I hope there is a place for my stupid question which is as follows:

Which OLB stays on the field by default in a 4-2-5 Nickel? The Right or Left. I asks because my ROLB Karlos Dansby is my best outside linebacker so I want him on the field more than all others, but if by default he sits in a nickel and some other chump plays then I'm considering changing his position to LOLB so he plays more. Good move?

That's a good question. I don't use the playbook and so I have never seen it. A good way to find out if you don't want to manually look in play creator would be to sim a few games with that defense just to see who is starting, then reload.

Some things they do in the game don't make sense. For all I know, it could be two MLB. I wouldn't be surprised haha. I assume MLB and ROLB though. They pretty much make the ROLB the stronger linebacker in this game.

[tarek]

Re: Question on 4-3 Over/Under Formation

See that's what I'm still trying to understand. Traditionally it seems the TE will lineup on the right, so wouldn't that make the left outside the strong one in that case? In most of the HC09 formations it seems like the Nickel CB lines up to the defenses right (offenses left) which is why I thought the ROLB would be the one replaced.

And then I wonder whether reversing a play would just move the already established players or would thus remove the LOLB and insert the ROLB.

It seems confusing. I've been reading some football explanations and it seems that it would be much better if you could define which linebacker was Sam/Will rather than place a Right/Left on them.

Either way ill be going traditional, with the TE on the right and assume that my LOLB will predominately be on the strong side. Unless of course I've got this all backwards. Which could be quite likely.

[revan615]

Re: Question on 4-3 Over/Under Formation

In the 4-2-5, they keep your MLB ans LOLB on the field, replacing the ROLB with an extra safety. You need two good tackling SS to run it effectively, as they often line up on the ends, just outside your DE. An awful lot of blitzing come from this formation, using a 3-4 philosophy.