I don't understand Production

[Cavicchi]

Quote: Originally Posted by Skarecrow

never forget that the OVL rating is simply a very rough measuring stick, and is never actually used in any gameplay calculations that impact performance (that I'm aware of). To the best of my knowledge, and I'm sure MRS will correct me if I'm wrong, it's still the individual ratings that are used in regular gameplay, such as "run block strength", "run block speed", and "impact block", (forgive me if I got those stat names slightly off, writing from memory) for, say, an OT on a running play. Not sure what it uses in sim mode though. i'm pretty sure we've shown in the past that full sim mode (not supersim) ignores most individual stats in favor of fast calculations.

If the individual ratings are what is used, then I am very confused. Considering my team was last in rushing and did poorly on the run, how does my offensive line get over 90 for RBK and Patrick Boma was 99 (ninety-nine) for run block.

What I'm saying there is not limited to OL.

[Skarecrow]

if you played out your games, then yeah your team is usually going to be last in running unless that's -all- you do. the production is noticably worse on the run game in play-the-game-mode as opposed to supersim mode or (especially) sim mode. it's so bad that if I -need- those last 2 yards, I'll occasionally go into supersim mode for a single running play to up my chances of the play being successful, then back to regular mode. the reason you can have such a good O line and still have a bad run game is complicated to explain. The easiest way to think of it (and this is a gross oversimplification) is the game has a default upper limit for just how likely a given play is to succeed (think of it more of a range from "really poor production" to "really good production, rather than "it works" vs "it doesn't work"), and the indvidual player stat ratings on either side of the ball (whether the blocker blocks, whether the back finds the hole, whether the opposing lineman breaks his block, whether the opposing linebacker is faked by the back's cut, whether the linebacker or lineman actually can tackle the back once they touch him, etc) are then compared against that inital play success rating to determine what happens and how much production the play makes.

and of course many of these things can be adjusted even further by sliders.

again, vast oversimplification, but if the game has determine that, for whatever reasons (be it weather, coaching, player fatigue, whatever), that a play you're calling has a very low chance of producing well, it barely matters how good the individual stats of players being thrown at the play are, they're still going to get a yard or two at best unless you luck out heavily with the RNG (random number generator).

another way to think of it is in dungeons and dragons terms, if you're familiar with that game. you may be playing a hero who has slain dragons, rescued kingdoms, is the pinacle of human physical development, and a bone-fide hero... but if the dungeon master determines that you've only got a 5% chance of jumping that 15' wide chasm while wearing your plate armor, then you're going to fail no matter how "good" you are unless you get really lucky.

[Mike3207]

It is the individual ratings that are used, but they are heavily influenced by the sliders and coach skills.

For example, the default sliders will absolutely murder the User running game, linebackers are too good. I'm not sure if it's defensive awareness or tackle, but if you leave it at default you'll definitely be at a disadvantage.

Same thing with the defensive special skills. It's not too hard for your HC, DC and LBC to get improved Tackling. Do that with all 3, you'll do very well at shutting down any running game, even with good run sliders. This really applies to any part of the gameplay. The positional skills really influence the basic gameplay.

[Cavicchi]

Quote: Originally Posted by mrs844224

It is the individual ratings that are used, but they are heavily influenced by the sliders and coach skills. For example, the default sliders will absolutely murder the User running game, linebackers are too good. I'm not sure if it's defensive awareness or tackle, but if you leave it at default you'll definitely be at a disadvantage. Same thing with the defensive special skills. It's not too hard for your HC, DC and LBC to get improved Tackling. Do that with all 3, you'll do very well at shutting down any running game, even with good run sliders. This really applies to any part of the gameplay. The positional skills really influence the basic gameplay.

I didn't multi-quote to save space so I want to thank Skarecrow for his extensive explanation, much appreciated.

mrs844224,

I looked at sliders and got confused. Some seem to indicate the sliders are broken, or that solving one problem creates another, or that it makes the game harder. I am not interested in making the game harder. As it now stands, I just want a decent run game.

I am starting over in the 2008 off season with no star cornerbacks, halfbacks, or wide receivers. I will franchise tag and trade Randy Moss. Even if Asomugha is available through the bidding process, I am not getting him.

If you know a slider set that improves the User run game without making the game harder, I would love to have it.

[Rx3]

Quote: Originally Posted by Cavicchi

Just like recent and current NFL Madden games, right? Oh, and apparently you were wrong about production not being a factor in Overall, or do you still insist that is the case?

Was I wrong that production changes the OVR score number? Yes. I didn't know that's what the AI uses to help evaluate talent.

Was I wrong that production has nothing to do with onfield performance? No.

I'll say it again: The production score (just like the OVR score, which changes based on philosophy) is a tool to evaluate talent. When you are trying to figure out why things happen (i.e. missed tackles, etc.) forget about the production score, hell you could really disregard the OVR score. What you need to concern yourself with is the physical attributes, the intangibles, gameplan, etc. and to some extent the sliders.


Seriously, why do you ask questions, have people give you the answer, then still act like your way is the right way? Why even bother? Just curious, because I've noticed it in almost all the threads you start. People tell you how to fix an issue, and you ignore them completely.

Quote: Originally Posted by Skarecrow

never forget that the OVL rating is simply a very rough measuring stick, and is never actually used in any gameplay calculations that impact performance (that I'm aware of).

Bingo.

Quote: Originally Posted by Skarecrow

another way to think of it is in dungeons and dragons terms, if you're familiar with that game. you may be playing a hero who has slain dragons, rescued kingdoms, is the pinacle of human physical development, and a bone-fide hero... but if the dungeon master determines that you've only got a 5% chance of jumping that 15' wide chasm while wearing your plate armor, then you're going to fail no matter how "good" you are unless you get really lucky.

Very good analogy.

And to further that point, just look at your player progression screen. Players earn experience points, when they cross the threshold to the "next" level, their skills go up.

So why is it your LB with 90 skill at whatever attribute is still messing up when you know he should probably be doing better?

Answer: THE SLIDERS!
Solution: ADJUST THEM SO GAMEPLAY IS BETTER!

mrs844224's explanation above breaks it down even more.

But you've already been told that in 2 or 3 of your threads Cavicchi, and you still insist on doing it your way with the default sliders. We've all tried it that way. It won't get better. Either accept the weird things that happen with default sliders, or change them to make the gameplay match what YOU feel is "realistic", whatever that may be.

Get the sliders changed. There is a whole section here on sliders to try out. Or go make up your own sliders, then share them. Maybe whatever settings you come up with might be beneficial for others to try.

[Cavicchi]

Quote: Originally Posted by Rx3

Get the sliders changed. There is a whole section here on sliders to try out. Or go make up your own sliders, then share them. Maybe whatever settings you come up with might be beneficial for others to try.

All I get is talk about sliders, but no one has come forth with a set. I said my piece above about sliders. If you have what I want, post it instead of making accusations or complaints.

[Rx3]

Quote: Originally Posted by Cavicchi

All I get is talk about sliders, but no one has come forth with a set. I said my piece above about sliders. If you have what I want, post it instead of making accusations or complaints.

No one is going to "come forth" with a slider set. How the game feels in terms of output is up to you. What I think is good for sliders, you might not like so much.


http://www.operationsports.com/forum...coach-sliders/

FYI it's at the top of the page of the NFL Head Coach forum.

Have at it. More slider sets than you can shake a stick at. Most are good. Which one is for you? Only you will know after you try them. Read some of the threads and the research behind them, see what the slider author had in mind, then figure out which ones you want to give a go.

[Skarecrow]

I've tried a handful of slider sets, and this is the slider set I keep coming back to and use currently.

Quote: Originally Posted by Ebongreen

QBA- 40 PBK- 40 WRC- 40 RBA- 80 RBK- 60 AWR- 40 KND- 40 INT- 50 BRB- 40 TAK- 40 FGP- 45 FGA- 40 PTP- 50 PTA- 50 KOP- 40 Quarter Length- 15 Minutes Play Clock- On CPU Play Downloading- Your Preference Offside- 50 False Start- 50 Holding- 50 Facemask- 40 Offensive PI- 53 Defensive PI- 53 KR/PR Interference- 75 Clipping- 50 Intentional Grounding- 75 Roughing Passer- 75 Roughing Kicker- 75

This is what Ebongreen has to say about them:

Quote: Originally Posted by ebongreen

Pluses: I have a running game now. I can't run at will (yet), but Ray Rice will finish the year as a thousand-yard-plus rusher, barring injury. The competition is able to run against me (1500+ yards so far this season). Again, not at will, and not necessarily really well, but I have to actually worry about Rashard Mendenhall (Bears) and Adrian Peterson (Vikings) when I play those teams. Run blitzing is essential and doesn't always work. Chump QBs like Tarvaris Jackson, God bless him, are no longer completing passes at will against Al Harris and Nnamdi Asomugha in man coverage. Penalty frequency seems relatively realistic. GB is leading the league in fewest penalties assessed, though not yardage. Looking at the team stats generally so far this year, I'm not leading the way in all categories (which was common on the default sliders). Minuses: There's no fixing the defensive AI's vulnerability to the play-action pass. Packers QB Andre Woodson went over 4000 yards passing in less than twelve games(!), and is averaging nearly 400 yards per game. The Packers coaching staff has a lot of "help-the-QB" special skills between Mike McCarthy and Tom Clements, so those numbers aren't as unreal as they seem. He's also averaging only 66% completion - in line with other top passers - and is near the league lead in attempts. He just happens to be completing a lot of long pass plays (161/187 deep attempts, DAvg 20.4), helped in great measure by YAC-masters Driver (310/4.5) and Jennings (314/5.3). For comparison, both Mannings, McNabb and Romo were over 3000 yards passing in the same time period. Kenny Phillips, starting at SS, has over ten picks already this year. Of course, he does have WR-class hands, and I set him up well.

My personal notes:

fixes the run game somewhat. good backs will still get stuffed by good defenses.

passing game is completely unrealistic if you select certain playbooks and the vertical passing philosophy. I'm perfectly ok with that. I wasn't at first, but now I find it fun.