The NHL 2K9 Developers Are Listening

[ChaseB]

I did one of these threads for MLB 2K9, and I want to do the same for this one. The NHL 2K9 team does want to know where the series has gone wrong, how they can fix those errors, what the series does right, what you guys love about hockey video games, what you want to see in a hockey video game, and just why you love to play hockey video games.

Forwarding those ideas won't be a problem, so be specific and be honest. Your chance to get your voice heard is here.

Mods maybe hook this bad boy up with a sticky. Also, the sooner the better in terms of getting your comments/opinions/thoughts out there.

[bonannogiovanni]

Re: The NHL 2K9 Developers Are Listening

Great puck physics and side broadcast angle, but those sluggish control need a major overhaul, pro stick evolution must evolve so that there's seamless interaction between passing, shooting and deking.

[RealmK]

Re: The NHL 2K9 Developers Are Listening

AI that doesn't drive down the middle constantly, an actual new play by play script recorded with some actual passion/emotion, graphics that don't look last gen. Bring back the previous games franchise options as 2k9 was absolute bare bones. Those would be a good start to get me back interested in 2k hockey.

[baa7]

Re: The NHL 2K9 Developers Are Listening

My major gripes which, if fixed, would inspire me to buy 2K10:

- Player models and player faces need major work.
- The new commentary needs serious improvement. It's as bad as the old commentary was.
- Options from last year were taken out, and need to be put back in the game.
- General gameplay AI needs tweaking, as it does and always will. But some of it appears flat-out broken.
- If you can program the AI so that a real and actual neutral zone game existed, this series would be gold. Because the neutral zone game simply doesn't exist in any hockey series, which is the equivalent of a video football game where all the action takes place within the two red zones. Hockey IS NOT quickly skating up the ice with the puck, and then down the ice chasing after it. And that's about all these video hockey games have been for two decades now. I want to see real and actual hockey tactics incorporated into the gameplay, which means neutral zone pressure and checking. I want to play The Show: NHL Version. If SCEA can create an amazingly realistic simulation of baseball, why can't hockey developers do the same for hockey games?

[Money99]

Re: The NHL 2K9 Developers Are Listening

Pros:
- Goalies
- Puck Physics
- Differences between stars and 4th liners. This was done exceptionally well.
- Best. Fighting. Engine. Ever.

Cons:
- "Polish". Not sure how else to put it. But the game, visually, seems a bit rough around the edges. At times, it's beautiful, but in others it looks last gen. Maybe it's because I'm spoiled with the 'Mac' look of NHL09, but I'd like to see the 2K9 series tightened up in this regard.
- Controls. I liked the controls of 2K9 but I didn't like how I could only deke east and west. I want the full spectrum. Basically, copy NHL09's controls. That would work great.
- Skating. This is another mixed bag. At times the skating looks great but at other times the players look awkward or move unrealistically.
- AI. I don't want the CPU to get boosts as you move up in difficulty. I understand that sometimes it's unavoidable but I'd prefer the AI got smarter instead of turning Jordan Tootoo into Guy Lafluer.

[daflyboys]

Re: The NHL 2K9 Developers Are Listening

....and I want to play NFL 2K5: the NHL version.

If they confer with some of the stable forces at 2khockey.net and not just one knucklehead, they might get a good lead on what's needed. Then, if the kiddies want arcade hockey.....put in a pre-loaded set of sliders that will make it such.

[Scottdau]

Re: The NHL 2K9 Developers Are Listening

Better player models. That is the only thing I want. I like the way the game plays. It would be cool too to have the sticks not going through bodies or other sticks. It would make it a much harder game Defensive wise.

[baa7]

Re: The NHL 2K9 Developers Are Listening

....and I want to play NFL 2K5: the NHL version

That exists already. It's called NHL 2K5, and I bought it and played it for the first time about 3 months ago. Great game.

2K was rockin' in 05! Which then begs the question: What the hell happened??

[Jim236]

Re: The NHL 2K9 Developers Are Listening

Here's my two pents. If you can actually be bothered to read it all that is To start with, here's what I think 2k did right this year..

Pros:

Puck Physics - Far better than anything in NHL 09. It's great fun knowing when you throw a puck on net through traffic anything can happen.
Goalies - Again, so much better than EA's superhuman (or completely useless) goalies. They just behave in a way you'd expect a real goalie to behave most of the time. Properly screened shots actually work, and it's pretty satisfying when a shot squeezes straight in through a crowd and the goalie doesn't even see it.
Broadcast Camera - Fantastic view, which can almost look like a real TV broadcast at times.
Graphics - Obviously not the horrific player models, but the arenas and the ice look good, as well as the player shadows. Best thing is it all runs silky smooth, no awkward camera transitions or framerate issues ala NHL 09.
Animations - Shooting and goalie animations are great. The slap shot looks pretty odd, but quick wrist shots and snap shots look real nice. There's a lot of great individual animations in the game, but this kind of leads me on to my next point...

Cons:

Animations - The transitions between animations are dreadful. Watching cutscenes in between plays are painful most of the time. Different animations seem to start and stop every other second and it just looks broken. The skating animations could use a lot of work too - they look very laboured and robotic most of the time. They just need some life put into them.
Overall Polish - Carrying on from the last point, this is probably one of the biggest issues for me. The game just seems unfinished. Clunky menus, broken Franchise mode, awkward cutscenes - I could go on and on. A lot of this is probably because of the short development time, so here's hoping 2k10 will be much better in that respect. But if they want to compete with EA they're really gonna have to polish the hell out of their next game.
Graphics - The player models/faces are horrendous. They would've looked terrible 3 or 4 years ago, let alone in 2008. I'm sure this alone was a big turn-off for a lot of people. I'd be willing to bet a lot more people would've given 2k9 a fair chance if the player models were up to the standard in EA's game.
AI - Definitely one of the biggest issues. The offensive AI being the real culprit. It has no concept of setting up in the offensive zone, and does nothing but drive straight down the middle for the net. If you stand them up at the blue line, they'll take the puck down the wing and then proceed to cut inwards and drive straight to the net. It just gets ridiculous when 4 opposing players are all simultaneously crashing the net every rush up the ice. Even with the man-advantage they'll do exactly the same thing. I just think the AI needs a total rework to know how to actually play hockey.
Skating Engine - Can feel pretty awkward at times. Players should be able to turn and orientate themselves on the spot to face whichever way they want without having the turning circle of a bus. Generally feels pretty floaty, I'd like it to feel like there's a little more momentum in play as you skate around the ice.
Controls - Not sure on this one. None of the control schemes felt great, not a fan of the "Pro-Stick". I just think if they're gonna rip off the skill-stick, they may as well do the whole shebang. But like I said, I don't really have any ideas on this one...

I think 2k should really drop the whole 'putting the fun back into hockey games' spiel and really try and make a hardcore sim which is as true to life as technically possible. Obviously I would say that, but they've really got to try and differientiate themselves somehow. EA's game is far from a simulation.

All this talk about making the game fun to pick up and play is pointless, NHL 09 is dominating 2k in that respect. EA have got a really fun control scheme and a nicely polished game which probably has attracted more casual fans than ever. And to make matters worse, the vast majority of hockey fans favour NHL 09 as well, so it's a double whammy.

I'd just like to see a game which does a decent job of simulating a game of hockey, both the ugly and the pretty stuff. Obviously hockey is a complex sport, but we're still not even close to replicating the sport in video games, up to now it's been more like...ice soccer. Following on from what baa7 said, I want to see real life strategies in action, neutral zone play, more emphasis on the dump and chase game, getting the puck in deep and henning the opposition in their own zone on the forecheck - getting a cycle going. To be fair 2k9 does have some board play and pinning, but there definitely needs to be a bigger emphasis on what is such a big part of hockey.

I've got some ideas in terms of defensive controls and mechanics as well, but I think I've rambled on enough for now...

[ChaseB]

Re: The NHL 2K9 Developers Are Listening

I'll read every word Jim, thanks for the input.

[Steven547]

Re: The NHL 2K9 Developers Are Listening

The box score doesn't work. It doesn't display all the goals / assists.
The box score shows a RUNNING time for goals scored...that is done in SOCCER not Hockey. In other words, it starts at 1min and ends at 60 mins. It should be 1 - 20 per period. How did they miss this?

Fix the driving down the middle.
Players freeze up (especially on position lock play).
Player models are worse then last year.
Audio keeps playing after doing the zamboni ride.

[7stringking]

Re: The NHL 2K9 Developers Are Listening

Use the Action Cam as the stock cam...Zoom 3, Height 5 ...Much more exciting


Allow VIP profiles to control CPU opponents in Franchise mode...This will lessen the need to 'completely' rework the offensive A.I., as the CPU would play according to the VIP assigned to it...Allow users to create team specific VIP profiles, and of course download others VIP profiles as well.

[tabulaRasa]

Re: The NHL 2K9 Developers Are Listening

Been a 2k fan since NHL2k3(actually had NHL2k from black box on the dreamcast), but as always I buy both Eas and 2ks game each year, but I must say that I jumped ship with NHL09.

So , why did I do that?

Well NHL2k8 is valued high by some hardcore fans (I am a hardcore hockey nut too but anyway), but for me the controls of NHL2k8 really was a bit over the top compared to EAs.

What I would want 2k to do to come back into the awesome and own category is this:

First, positioning and cycling: 2K needs to get back to importance of positioning to cover lanes and cycling to tear up Ds. DO NOT, I reapeat ; Do not focus the Defensive work on checking. This is what destroyed the flow and cycling of NHL2k7-NHL2k9.

Keep your good boardplay. EAs has none to talk about.

Quicker passing , but unlike EA keep it more manual and the option to have total manual passing aim. But it needs to be at EA speed to get good cycling flow.

Checking, keep checking mostly to boards and keep it realistic, no koivus nailing charas on open ice or similar. Checking that´s to effective has been devastating to the flow of 2Ks games recently.

Controls, carbon copy EAs stick control, it´s total awesomeness in it´s smoothness. Atleast make your own controls more smooth. 2k used to be the kings of controls (2k3-2k7). You could probably improve the dumpins and add some kind of tap-in/one-time move. And no canned dekes, do it the EA way.

Pass reception, keeping the flow of the game is important, and no more pauses when getting passes on the wing please.

Defense stick work; make the stick sweep more like 2k5-2k7, or atleast make is more smooth. And stick lifts are a must and have been requested numerous times at 2khockey.net (atleast by pengman)

Keep your awesome goalies, and keep making them more personal.

Keep making the areanas as accurate as possible.

Player models need to be more accurate and compete with EAs, right now they don´t when it comes to overall look.

Authenticity;more effort please. And jersey tucks needs to be in the game, not just during replays.

Keep your great puck physics, which is better than Eas.

Out of the box awesome: THe game needs to be a great representation of hockey right out of the box, a version of the game the dev team can say ; this is hockey. Sliders are great, but 2k needs to have a great representation right out of the box too. 2K has always been good with tweaks, but step up and make it great from the get go.

Real time celebrations are great, keep making them better.

Cutscenes off play: Mimic broadcasts and keep presentation as TV like as possible. NHL2k5 did this great. Love it still when I see it at youtube.

PBP, could be improved and they could be more excited. Is it just me or are american PBP guys a bit more exciting?

I´ll say it again: Presentation, Player models and Sound needs to step up, and shine just as it did at the 2k5 era. It adds so much. People love it more when it shines.

But lastly: Positioning and passing needs to be the focus. Getting the flow of the game back, with awesome cycling and setting up plays. Stick work on the D should be there to counter passing lanes of rushing players. Skill vs Skill, but the insane reliance on checking needs to be a thing of the past.

And again,players models and presentation should be your 2nd priority to regain awesomeness.

And oh yeah, DO NOT go back to 2k8 controls, mimic the skill stick from NHL09 instead, do no reinvent the wheel.

Here´s hoping 2k bounce back.

[CarryTheWeight]

Re: The NHL 2K9 Developers Are Listening

2K's game offers some good things this year, but that doesn't mean it's perfect. Here are a few positive and negative aspects of NHL 2K9:

PRESENTATION
I was blown away this year by NHL 2K's revamped presentation, one of the best I've seen since the golden age of ESPN NFL 2K5. Replays are exactly like ones you'll see on real television. Replays, however, were few and far between. I liked what I saw from NBA 2K9 this year during stoppages, hopefully it'll make it into the NHL game. Also, take cues from ESPN NFL 2K5 and add some highlights during John Shrader's intermission reports (with analysis) instead of showing them only before intermissions and after games.

Commentary was hit and miss. I wasn't as repulsed as many on the forums were over it, but I think it was a bit too generic and didn't focus in on things that real-life commentators cover (such as statistics, player matchups and team tendencies). More work should go into Drew and Randy's scripts, as they sound dry and nothing like they do on TV.

GRAPHICS
Arena models, menus, and broadcast transitions are the best in the business, but the player models are downright ugly. Sure, each linesman and referee are on the ice but what's the use if the game looks like it belongs on the original Xbox? Player faces, jerseys and the overall model itself looks at least a generation backward and pales in comparion, not only to EA's title but to NHL 2K8. NBA 2K9 pulls off the "Real-Time Living World" idea WITH impressive graphics, so why can't we get the same for NHL 2K10?

AUTHENTICITY
Every arena and team has a different "feel" to it in 2K9, and there's tons of "little things" in the game that continue to wow me. This is an area where EA's NHL series falls flat on its face IMO, and where 2K continues to shine. Seeing actual retired players' names in arenas' rafters, playing in a facsimile of Ralph Wilson Stadium, seeing Stanley Cup ice art and patches during the playoffs, hearing the Quebecois PA announcer in Montreal and hearing multiple team chants are all nice touches, and it definitely adds a ton of personality to the game. A more authentic game will lead to more attention, and the truer the game can get to the emotion and pageantry of the real sport will undoubtedly attract more gamers. If the developers can add presentation or gameplay features that add even more authenticity to the game without gimmicky execution, we can expect big things next year.

GAMEPLAY
I hate to bring up Midway's NHL Hitz Pro again, but it's one of the only games I feel can cater to every gamer's tastes. I feel an approach similar to Hitz Pro will undoubtedly support 2K's mantra of creating a fun, yet realistic hockey experience. In my opinion, the three control selections of NHL 2K9 offered three distinct ways of playing the game. If this philosophy can be expanded to the entire gameplay itself, gamers will be able to select the gameplay that suits their own expectations of a hockey title. I'm not talking about adding the flaming pucks and glass-shattering checks that stigmatize the Hitz series, but sliders that can dramatically affect a game's feeling. Does a gamer prefer a faster, "arcade" game with increased hitting? Or does a gamer prefer a slower, methodical and painfully realistic game of hockey? Offer both. Make the experience as customizable as possible. That way, you can deliver fun AND realism with a gameplay experience that caters to the INDIVIDUAL gamer and not a bunch of unsatisfied gamers at large.

ANIMATIONS
Another positive thing 2K9 offers are its great animations, but they are, once again, far from perfect. Skating seems to be influenced by a player's momentum, but once dekes come into play, skating becomes choppy. Also, "idle" skating animations during cutscenes look very poorly animated and pale in comparison to the impressive animations in-game.

Goalies have impressive save animations, but their idle animations look nothing like the real McCoy. Their AI may be "human" but their animations in-between saves and in stoppages are robotic. They look more like hunched-over professional wrestlers in goalie pads than hockey goalies.

Real-time celebrations are sometimes impressive, but sloppily executed and, in many cases, unrealistic. Take, for instance, the weird instances when similar goal celebrations for different players activate at the same time. How the heck can the goalscorer, Evgeni Malkin, pump his fist in synchronization with linemate Sidney Crosby, who stands ten feet away from him on the ice? It looks sloppy and is one of the most called-out (and laughed at) elements of 2K9 on these forums and on more hostile environments like YouTube. Also, some of the goal celebrations are too over the top for my liking. After scoring a game-tying goal in the second period, should Craig Rivet dive to the ice like Maxim Afinogenov did after winning the 2007 Eastern Conference Semifinals in overtime? After scoring the first goal of the game, should Shane Doan fall to his knees while pumping his fists in the air? And, as much as people liked the celebrations on the bench in 2K9, I thought they were also over-the-top. Most of the time, goalscorers simply skate by their bench and pound gloves with their teammates after they skate by, not jump on the boards and get mobbed by teammates. It may be fine after a game-winning goal in a crucial Game 7 in the playoffs, but not while scoring in Game 37 of the regular season.

IDEAS AND EXECUTION
Playoff beards? Excellent idea. Interactive Stanley Cup celebrations? Excellent idea. A Wii port? Excellent idea. But these ideas, as great as they were on paper, were largely bittersweet when seen in motion. Because of the weak face models in NHL 2K9, playoff beards looked artificial and "painted on", despite growing round-by-round. 2K9's Stanley Cup celebration was buggy and (dare I say) WEIRD in places. Passing the cup from player to player should be a lot easier, for instance. And the Wii port? Don't get me started. 2K promised that the experience on Wii would NOT be a scaled-down 360 and PS3 port, but it sadly wasn't true. I could understand a drop in graphical quality for Wii, but the audio compression truly ruined the game for me. Wii Optical discs are dual-layered (like 360's) as of last year, so there's no excuse why the Wii had to receive such a bad-sounding port.

The game has tremendous potential. It just needs to clean up its uglier aspects and improve on what already works. The game isn't a disaster by any means, but it needs improvement in necessary areas.

[RealmK]

Re: The NHL 2K9 Developers Are Listening

That exists already. It's called NHL 2K5, and I bought it and played it for the first time about 3 months ago. Great game.

2K was rockin' in 05! Which then begs the question: What the hell happened??

I was just going to post the same thing, 2k3 and 2k5 were both fantastic games, since the move to next gen/current gen systems its been all downhill.