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Old 04-10-2005, 08:24 PM   #65
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Re: Posts I'll Never Understand

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Isn't that what I said? You're the one that decided that somehow "sliders are getting a negative lablel" because one guy doesn't care for them, and another poster has decided it's somehow high school all over again with the cool non-slider-luvvin' kids picking on the slider underclass.
Give me a break. If that's your opinion of how this discussion has developed, then I really think you are taking things a bit to the extreme.


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Why not? What's so different? part of what's different is that in a film, you respect the director as "author" ... a videogame you expect should somehow be "realistic", and don't think there's any art involved.
As soon as you find sliders that allow me to jump to the bottom of the 5th inning or the middle of the 3rd quarter ending up with the same exact result as if I would've played the game through, then maybe, just maybe, I'll give your argument some validity.

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Sure it does - select the chapters in whatever order you think best.
But does it give me the ability to change those chapters and mold them to how I would like them? Does it allow me to change the actors expressions? To change their backdrops? To effect the lighting? Because that, in essence, would be the logical comparison.

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Again - I think that games are a challenge, and you should meet them halfway.

You getting scored on too much? You can adjust the slider, or pitch better.
You not scoring enough? You can adjust the slider, or learn how to hit.
You not getting enough walks? You can adjust the slider, or learn plate discipline.
And this goes to the foundation of my argument. You originally said that you despised sliders and are crazed by those that obsess over them. I, by no means, obsess over them, but I definitely see the need for them and the people that spend their time giving some gamers (that play close to other's abilities) with a new, polished set of default sliders. Because that's all most slider-makers have ever claimed to do. Of course there are those that claim to make the world's-bestest-most-terrific-ever-sliders-the-world-has-ever-seen.....but they come along sparingly and we all know not to pay much attention to them.
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Old 04-10-2005, 08:26 PM   #66
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Re: Posts I'll Never Understand

I'm glad the sliders are there, and I think it's good to give everyone the option to tweak the game the way they want it. I usually use sliders to make the game more difficult for me.

However, I agree with fossen in that I don't like people who proclaim their set as the ultimate end-all fix to the game's problems, and I don't like the people who won't play a game until Slider King X releases his set. No one can ever make the "perfect set," because everyone plays the game differently. A set may be good for one person, but that doesn't mean it will be for everyone. That's why I don't understand why some people ditch the defaults before even playing the game, because that may end up being the "perfect set" for them. I always play at least 5-10 games on the default and also try different difficulty levels before I do anything with the sliders.
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Old 04-10-2005, 10:27 PM   #67
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Re: Posts I'll Never Understand

I'm thankful for sliders. I don't understand 50 cent, or the NBA quite honestly, but I do understand the value of sliders. I don't understand somebody being bothered by them however. 'Sliderphobia' is a new one to me.

To simply say to someone, "Get better at hitting, then you don't need sliders", is just wrong. Why? Because a majority of the time in video games it's the CPU that has the disadvantage against the human. That's why people make sliders and/or 'house rules'. It's to allow them to play the game for a longer period of time instead of winning 155-0 in Madden at the highest level.

Back in the day you could learn the 'money' plays and take advantage of the CPU all day. Or hell you could learn the patterns in Pac-Man and win all day too. Now the AI in games is MUCH more sophisitcated...but it's still artificial.

I used to come here all the time when I was a lurker and look up slider sets because I couldnt get believeable games. They were a big help to me. Then I just started posting what I was using. If it helped someone else fine, if not, hey everyones different. Not only is everyone's skill different, but more importantly everyones opinion of what is realistic is different too.

I don't strive for 'realistic' because we'll argue about that all day. I want believeable. Believe me, I've gotten PM's from people not happy with FG%'s of a team they play with that actually shoots the same in real life. But they still aren't happy. You can never tweak a magic formula or 'universal' set to solve everyones needs because of skill level, but more importantly their perception of realistic.

Last year I was about to tear my hair out with ESPN football. I posted sliders that I thought were good, but they just weren't. Then I found somebody's perfect zero sliders and like magic my games were great. I had so much fun. I told everyone that would listen to use these guys sliders. I'm thankful for him cuz he saved the game for me.

You can say all day, "Learn to play the game instead of relying on sliders." But then again, there were plenty of people last year that used that same lame argument to those who couldn't hit lefty HR's in MVP2004....ooops.

If a game plays great 'out of the box' I'm all for it. ESPN CHoops this year was near perfect for me. I play a TON of games on default before I even tweak a thing. But this years game has one problem for me. Free throws are too dam easy. And guess what? There's no difficulty slider for that this year. So my team will always shoot 90+% from the line, while the CPU will never shoot that well.....sure wish I had a slider for that.

As far as watching games, I don't. But I do understand why some do. The same reason why many websites 'predict' sporting outcomes using videogames these days. It's fun. Games are more than games now. WIth all of the modding and customization you can do they are more like mad scientist kits or erector sets. SO why not watch games if it's fun for you. Sometimes you wanna see what would happen if this team played this team in this situation. Even if it's not for real. And best of all? No commercials.
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Old 04-10-2005, 10:51 PM   #68
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Re: Posts I'll Never Understand

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Originally Posted by fossen
Again - I think that games are a challenge, and you should meet them halfway.

You getting scored on too much? You can adjust the slider, or pitch better.
You not scoring enough? You can adjust the slider, or learn how to hit.
You not getting enough walks? You can adjust the slider, or learn plate discipline.
See, this is the problem most have with your argument, including myself. I'm all for you hating sliders. That's your opinion. Can't disrespect that. But you take drastic examples to prove your point.

If you don't like sliders, I'm guess we can safely say you don't use them, correct? You don't try out many different ideas and suggestions thrown out here in the forums, correct? So you have no idea what a joy it is to be able to fix something in a game that was a problem BEFORE a slider adjustment. I'll use one example, and that's the passed ball issues in MLB 2k5. Can you imagine how annoying that would be to many gamers if they couldn't fix that? Sure, they have to deal with excessive amounts of errors by the computer now, but in essence, sliders have saved that game for some. Are multiple passed balls per game a realistic interpretation of the game of baseball? Can you honestly sit there and argue that? I would hope not.

But let's say you're not a slider fan. Or better yet, the game didn't have them. Again, using our example you would have to sit there, and deal with that game, a game you really enjoy, with this flaw. And it's such a huge glaring flaw, that you can't get over it. Aside from it, you can look past everything else. But NOT THIS. Without sliders, this year your fav. game is ruined. Does that sound like fun? Should we completely suspend belief when playing these games at all times and treat it like what it is: a game? Or can we hope for something more, an artistic representation of a game that you love and follow in reality that engrosses you so completely you almost forget you're playing a game?

It seems from some of your "get better" comments, you don't want to try and achieve that latter. If the computer is jacking out HR's in record number, we should just try and hit more than the CPU can. We should just take these items for what they are, and nothing else:

Games.
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Old 04-10-2005, 11:02 PM   #69
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Re: Posts I'll Never Understand

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Originally Posted by Squint
But does it give me the ability to change those chapters and mold them to how I would like them? Does it allow me to change the actors expressions? To change their backdrops? To effect the lighting? Because that, in essence, would be the logical comparison.
Well ... that's probably where we have to agree to disagree. By your comparision, you feel that sliders somehow fundamentally alter the very structure of the game. To continue the movie analogy, that you could turn Bad News Bears into The Natural with the proper sliders provided.

I don't think the changes that sliders make are that fundamental. I think you're just rearranging scenes. You won't take a game that is initially balanced for offense (like Home Run King) and turn it into a game that focuses on pitcher's duels and defense. And - my main argument is ... why would you bother, even if you could?

And as I said in the blog .... I can see tweaking a game for your own enjoyment. That makes sense, though I don't personally do it. Asking someone else to mold the game to your playstyle is what I really don't get. Assuming that Slider Guy X knows both the inner workings of the game and your gaming needs better than the developers is just something I don't "get".
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Old 04-10-2005, 11:19 PM   #70
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Re: Posts I'll Never Understand

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Originally Posted by Pared
I'll use one example, and that's the passed ball issues in MLB 2k5. Can you imagine how annoying that would be to many gamers if they couldn't fix that? Sure, they have to deal with excessive amounts of errors by the computer now, but in essence, sliders have saved that game for some. Are multiple passed balls per game a realistic interpretation of the game of baseball? Can you honestly sit there and argue that? I would hope not.

But let's say you're not a slider fan. Or better yet, the game didn't have them. Again, using our example you would have to sit there, and deal with that game, a game you really enjoy, with this flaw. And it's such a huge glaring flaw, that you can't get over it. Aside from it, you can look past everything else. But NOT THIS.
To your specific point? About the passed balls? Yesh - I used that slider fix.

But seriously, Pared: how many times is that really what you are doing? Fixing one glaring error that is crippling the game?

Or are you tweaking this and that, trying to achieve some sort of statistical match against a preconcieved notion of what is "realistic"? Evening out every game as much as possible so that they are all "fixed" according to your interpretation of baseball?

Because .... that's what it is. Your interpretation. As you, for example, try to achieve a correct walks per game number, you are making a decision about what causes walks. You are deciding wether it is a pitcher's mistake, or a successful action by the batter.

You're good at what you do, and lots of people respect you greatly. I'm just more interested in playing the games themselves than someone else's interpretation of them.

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Originally Posted by Pared
If the computer is jacking out HR's in record number, we should just try and hit more than the CPU can. We should just take these items for what they are, and nothing else:

Games.
Well .... yeah. They are games, whether you like it or not. Especially in console gaming, they are meant to be played .... there are PC statistical sims available, but that's not ever the intent of console gaming. Gaming promotes participation and skill, and statistical fidelity won't allow that. If a game forces me to throw wild pitches now matter how good I am at the game in order to hit a certain stat? It may be a heck of a sim, but it's a terrible game.

If I'm playing a game where there's HR after HR, I'm interested in that interpretation of baseball ... if I don't, I find a game to my liking. I don't want to take MLB and MVP and make them the same, I enjoy the differences between them. I don't like the idea of homogenizing every game according to some statistical model.
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Old 04-10-2005, 11:41 PM   #71
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Re: Posts I'll Never Understand

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Originally Posted by fossen
To your specific point? About the passed balls? Yesh - I used that slider fix.

But seriously, Pared: how many times is that really what you are doing? Fixing one glaring error that is crippling the game?

Or are you tweaking this and that, trying to achieve some sort of statistical match against a preconcieved notion of what is "realistic"? Evening out every game as much as possible so that they are all "fixed" according to your interpretation of baseball?

Because .... that's what it is. Your interpretation. As you, for example, try to achieve a correct walks per game number, you are making a decision about what causes walks. You are deciding wether it is a pitcher's mistake, or a successful action by the batter.

You're good at what you do, and lots of people respect you greatly. I'm just more interested in playing the games themselves than someone else's interpretation of them.


Well .... yeah. They are games, whether you like it or not. Especially in console gaming, they are meant to be played .... there are PC statistical sims available, but that's not ever the intent of console gaming. Gaming promotes participation and skill, and statistical fidelity won't allow that. If a game forces me to throw wild pitches now matter how good I am at the game in order to hit a certain stat? It may be a heck of a sim, but it's a terrible game.

If I'm playing a game where there's HR after HR, I'm interested in that interpretation of baseball ... if I don't, I find a game to my liking. I don't want to take MLB and MVP and make them the same, I enjoy the differences between them. I don't like the idea of homogenizing every game according to some statistical model.
Hey F,

I completely agree with everything you're saying. We're on the same page more than others would think. But I think a large problem with your article is the point you're making about sliders gets either lost or just isn't very clear. This what I know:

You don't like sliders.
You don't understand people who will NOT play a game without sliders.

That's pretty much the gist I get from that article. Obviously it's an personal article, and you're not denouncing others out there (at least I hope not) but instead proclaiming how you don't understand it. Fair enough. I don't understand Country music, and how Jeff Foxworthy is considered funny by Middle America.

I think a lot of the backlash (if it's even that, I still feel we're discussing appropriately) is from you leaving out that there are two sides of the coin. Sliders are there to save a developer's *** when they don't do something the general public accepts as real, especially in sports gaming. And I'm not talking everyone, cuz you can't please everyone. I'm talking about generally. The masses. And sliders CAN be positive, and I don't think your article maintains that line about the posts you're talking about, and solely that. You crossover a bit into the "hate for sliders" zone and that's where the meaning can get lost.

Hey, don't get me wrong... I do a lot of tweaking only when there are ways to improve a game. It's generally accepted, and I believe that comes from those looking for a statistical representation of sports we love to watch. They are a way, IMO, to immerse the gamer even MORE than the defaults that we are given, and that's the reason I mess with the sliders. It's not for making a game too easy or too hard, b/c that's very dependent on each gamer's individual skill level. But I see the points that you're saying, I just feel that the message gets lost along the way.

Not attacking the article (or you) at all, just sharing my thoughts on the matter. If anything, I should say I appreciate how this thread has made for some great discussion of many things (including helping others learn Tennis terminology! ) while maintaining a decent level of maturity.
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Old 04-10-2005, 11:44 PM   #72
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Re: Posts I'll Never Understand

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Originally Posted by fossen
And as I said in the blog .... I can see tweaking a game for your own enjoyment. That makes sense, though I don't personally do it. Asking someone else to mold the game to your playstyle is what I really don't get. Assuming that Slider Guy X knows both the inner workings of the game and your gaming needs better than the developers is just something I don't "get".
I'll try to make this my last post on this subject:

My understanding of the people that make slider sets (let's take Jistic and Pared for argument's sake) is to basically get a good set of "zeroed" sliders for those of us that don't have the patience (or sometimes understanding) to develop them ourselves. Not to be the one and only slider set for all involved. To make a statement that out-of-the-box sliders are good sliders for everyone is just as ignorant as saying "so-and-so's" slider set is the one and only best for everyone.

The best comparison I can make (yes, better than your movie analogy) are sites of the M-16. Off the press sights set to "zero" on an M-16 are called mechanical zero. Although you will find people that are able to use mechanical zero as their "battle sites", they are very rare. To get your true BZO (battle site zero) you must fire a few shots down range to get a good group, adjust, and refire to ensure you've moved your shot group center mast. Why is this? Because everyone has a different base of fire, bone structure, height, weight, eyesight, and the list goes on and on. All of these things have an effect on how each person fires their weapon and where their rounds impact. People like Jistic and Pared are basically providing us with our "shot groups" because we are of the same general height, weight, bone structure, etc. We adjust from there and come up with our default sliders.

So, default sliders (mechanical zero) may work for some, but true sliders (BZO) for most are adjusted from the default.

I think we've beat this horse as much as we can and received enough opinions on this subject to come to the conclusion that there are people split down the middle on this topic. Might as well separate them into blue states and red states.

Let me close by saying this.....Don't take this as me tearing your blog to shreds fossen. I admire you guys that are writing these blogs. Hell, I could never do it. And if it makes you feel any better, yours is the only blog that I felt compelled enough to write a response to. If nothing else, it made for a good conversation piece....and that's what its all about isn't it?
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