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Old 10-27-2005, 04:41 PM   #25
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Re: Tacking into the wind

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrotar
Now, QC, you're certainly entitled to your own opinion here - but that's specious reasoning at best.

I'm sure you don't believe that the US is the only country in the world that has homosexuals. It's common (and more accepted) in Europe, as well.
Besides, last time I checked - the Greek civilization doesn't exist in ruins... there's a direct connection with existing Greeks today.

I respect your opinion - apparently borne, like everyone's - from your own experiences, but the assertion that nations that accept homosexuality have all been destroyed in a time long past borders on the absurd.
Darnit Drotar...
Specious is my middle name.

However,

Ancient Greece: Superpower.
Current Greece: postage stamp practically unrelated to its former self.

Similarly, we say the "Roman Empire" has fallen, but there's still a Rome and an Italy.
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Old 10-27-2005, 04:49 PM   #26
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Re: Tacking into the wind

Quote:
Originally Posted by quietcool72
Similarly, we say the "Roman Empire" has fallen, but there's still a Rome and an Italy.
And an empire...

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Old 10-27-2005, 04:55 PM   #27
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Re: Tacking into the wind

Quote:
Originally Posted by quietcool72
Darnit Drotar...
Specious is my middle name.

However,

Ancient Greece: Superpower.
Current Greece: postage stamp practically unrelated to its former self.

Similarly, we say the "Roman Empire" has fallen, but there's still a Rome and an Italy.
There just isn't a connection between Greece or Rome collapsing and sexuality. Can you point me to concrete examples why these caused the collapse? Otherwise, I can just say "Oh, well, the Greeks and Romans ate meat just like we do, we're doomed to fail like they did". Or "We own tanks, just like the Soviet Union did, our government is dying". We need that middle "reasoning" to give it any relevancy. To compare our society now with past ones is fine, but to use them as predictors you're going to need a bit more logic for me to entertain any notion that broad.
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Old 10-27-2005, 06:44 PM   #28
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Re: Tacking into the wind

An empire without morals will tumble: some faster than others. Our moral relativism regarding the "new chic" of homosexuality is only one of our most recent forays into utter moral depravity. There's others, and there's much worse ones than even that, IMHO.

The long and the short of it is that theres NO accountability. We live in an age of self-declared entitlements.

"I deserve a break from my kids, so rather than come home tonight, I'll stay out late and they can watch TV or do whatever."

"I deserve to have relations with another person of the same sex- because I feel an urge to do so. The urge exists- its not my fault."

"I deserve to take a break from my wife with my receptionist-because I feel an urge to do so. The urge exists, and that's not my fault."

"How DARE you- teacher- criticize my child for doing poorly in your class. I pay taxes so I deserve to have a teacher who doesn't raise a voice to my child."

"I deserve to go out and get destroyed at the nightclubs, maybe even drive home drunk.. because I had a rough week. I've earned it."

"I deserve to not have my life changed by a child..."

"I deserve to have everything the Jones' do..."

"...And how dare you tell me differently."

We have an entire NATION filled with people who do what they want because they justify some warped sense of "I deserve..." You can't possibly say that such a thing is GOOD for us? Come on. Where's the altruism?

What do we have? I'll tell you what we have.

Er, wait- I'll let someone else tell you what we have. Lets play "Guess the Al Pacino Movie Quote":

--------------------------------------------------------
"...You sharpen the human appetite to the point where it can split atoms
with its desire. You build egos the size of cathedrals. Fiber-optically connect the world to every eager impulse. Grease even the dullest dreams with these dollar-green gold-plated fantasies until every human becomes an aspiring emperor- becomes his own god.

Where can you go from there? As we're scrambling from one deal to the next. But who's got his eye on the planet? As the air thickens, the water sours even bees' honey takes on the metallic taste of radioactivity and it just keeps coming, faster and faster. There's no chance to think, to prepare. It's buy futures, sell futures when there IS NO FUTURE. We got a runaway train, boy! We got a billion Eddie Barzoons all jogging into the future. Every one of them is getting ready to fist(expletive deleted) God's ex-planet, lick their fingers clean as they reach out toward their pristine cybernetic keyboards to tote up their ****ing billable hours!

And then it hits home. You got to pay your own way. It's a little late in the game to buy out now. Your belly's too full, your **** is too sore, your eyes are bloodshot and you're screaming for someone to help.

but guess what?

There's no one there!

You're all alone!" (end quote)
------------------------------------------------------------

Sound familiar, gang? Welcome to 2005 folks, where man is the master of his own domain, and free to re-write the lawbooks as he sees fit. Besides, if we are taught that we are nothing more than advanced, lucky apes..

..why not act the part?

And all I can say is:
Forgive us, because we sure as heck don't know what we do....
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Old 10-27-2005, 06:52 PM   #29
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Re: Tacking into the wind

Quote:
Originally Posted by quietcool72
An empire without morals will tumble: some faster than others. Our moral relativism regarding the "new chic" of homosexuality is only one of our most recent forays into utter moral depravity. There's others, and there's much worse ones than even that, IMHO.

The long and the short of it is that theres NO accountability. We live in an age of self-declared entitlements.

"I deserve a break from my kids, so rather than come home tonight, I'll stay out late and they can watch TV or do whatever."

"I deserve to have relations with another person of the same sex- because I feel an urge to do so. The urge exists- its not my fault."

"I deserve to take a break from my wife with my receptionist-because I feel an urge to do so. The urge exists, and that's not my fault."

"How DARE you- teacher- criticize my child for doing poorly in your class. I pay taxes so I deserve to have a teacher who doesn't raise a voice to my child."

"I deserve to go out and get destroyed at the nightclubs, maybe even drive home drunk.. because I had a rough week. I've earned it."

"I deserve to not have my life changed by a child..."

"I deserve to have everything the Jones' do..."

"...And how dare you tell me differently."

We have an entire NATION filled with people who do what they want because they justify some warped sense of "I deserve..." You can't possibly say that such a thing is GOOD for us? Come on. Where's the altruism?

What do we have? I'll tell you what we have.

Er, wait- I'll let someone else tell you what we have. Lets play "Guess the Al Pacino Movie Quote":

--------------------------------------------------------
"...You sharpen the human appetite to the point where it can split atoms
with its desire. You build egos the size of cathedrals. Fiber-optically connect the world to every eager impulse. Grease even the dullest dreams with these dollar-green gold-plated fantasies until every human becomes an aspiring emperor- becomes his own god.

Where can you go from there? As we're scrambling from one deal to the next. But who's got his eye on the planet? As the air thickens, the water sours even bees' honey takes on the metallic taste of radioactivity and it just keeps coming, faster and faster. There's no chance to think, to prepare. It's buy futures, sell futures when there IS NO FUTURE. We got a runaway train, boy! We got a billion Eddie Barzoons all jogging into the future. Every one of them is getting ready to fist(expletive deleted) God's ex-planet, lick their fingers clean as they reach out toward their pristine cybernetic keyboards to tote up their ****ing billable hours!

And then it hits home. You got to pay your own way. It's a little late in the game to buy out now. Your belly's too full, your **** is too sore, your eyes are bloodshot and you're screaming for someone to help.

but guess what?

There's no one there!

You're all alone!" (end quote)
------------------------------------------------------------

Sound familiar, gang? Welcome to 2005 folks, where man is the master of his own domain, and free to re-write the lawbooks as he sees fit. Besides, if we are taught that we are nothing more than advanced, lucky apes..

..why not act the part?

And all I can say is:
Forgive us, because we sure as heck don't know what we do....

It's nice to see that Dr. Dobson had time to join us in this spirited discussion.
At least we've boiled this down to what the intolerance springs from...

I suppose there's no further point in discussing this anymore.

I could lock this, but I won't - I'll leave that to less involved moderators to decide - though I doubt anything productive is in the offing...
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Old 10-27-2005, 06:56 PM   #30
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Re: Tacking into the wind

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrotar
It's nice to see that Dr. Dobson had time to join us in this spirited discussion.
At least we've boiled this down to what the intolerance springs from...

I suppose there's no further point in discussing this anymore.

I could lock this, but I won't - I'll leave that to less involved moderators to decide - though I doubt anything productive is in the offing...
Classic Drotar...
So we can clude litmus test for a "logical, tolerant discussion" on this topic would be agreeing with you and Clay's conclusions or somehow supporting them with words?

How very "morally relativistic" of you.

Point proven.
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Old 10-27-2005, 07:03 PM   #31
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Re: Tacking into the wind

Quote:
Originally Posted by quietcool72
Classic Drotar...
So we can clude litmus test for a "logical, tolerant discussion" on this topic would be agreeing with you and Clay's conclusions or somehow supporting them with words?

How very "morally relativistic" of you.

Point proven.
(sigh)

The only one who's "claimed" any "moral high ground", I'm afraid, is you, QC.
It's my experience - much like your own with your in-laws - that when invoked, such people can no longer be reasoned with.

Just as you follow your own experiences to their conclusions, so shall I - and in that regard, we're no different.

You had Pacino, I'll take Jefferson:
"No man has a natural right to commit aggression on the equal rights of another, and this is all from which the laws ought to restrain him."

and likely - sadly - more to the point:
"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever, in religion, in philosophy, in politics or in anything else, where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent. If I could not go to Heaven but with a party, I would not go there at all."

And it sounds like you and yours will be happy there without me.

Sounds like a win-win.

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Old 10-27-2005, 07:09 PM   #32
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Re: Tacking into the wind

Another interesting experiment in seeing if people can remain civil, and discuss the topic, not the person.

About the same results, though this one showed hope for awhile.

Thanks for the blog, Shawn.
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