NBA 2K7 Review (360)

[KBomber]

Quote: Originally Posted by Clay_OS

You tell everyone how Aaron's score does not fit the OS definition of a 10 out of 10, but does fit a 93-96 on a scale that you made up... and I'm sure Steve and Shawn will be more than happy to change it. And, while your at it, please share your wisdom with us all on the difference between a 93 and 96 on said scale. We'll see you next review.

As always, you guys are enormously sensitive to any for of criticism or suggestion and to that end, I'd only offer that maybe having less thin skin about any opinion that isn't in lock step with your own be treated with a bit more of an open mind.

First point, the score may very well fit the OS definition of what a 10 out of 10 should be. That being the case, the basic premise of the scoring system is flawed. If a game is, as noted, imperfect, the possibility of a perfect score should be an impossibility. Here Aaron himself makes note of the fact that the definition defines his score but that it essentially isn't representative of the game being perfect, so, once again we see where a reviewer is pidgeon-holed into a score rather than making a fair relation from their written comments to a numeric value

I haven't theorized in depth as to how Aaron's score relates to a numeric value. I've ballparked it, in a sense given the commentary, that while he believes the game is excellent, there are still some flaws. Essentially, the basis of how you guys establish your scoring system is up to you but right now you process is flawed, much in the same way that the subjective scoring systems in some Olympic sports where flawed and then re-addressed, in some cases more than once

My basic belief is that in rating games, much like in rating players in games, the possibility for being "Perfect" is an impossibility, no matter what Jamie Lee Curtis thinks. There is no such thing and any system that can deliver perfection as a score is fundamentally flawed. You guys take great care to take time to play these games. You take great care in choosing your words to describe your personal experiences with the game and then you just toss in a numeric value to describe all of that consideration without a care in the world, based on criteria that are flawed in their pre-determination. Aaron Holbert makes specific mention of this in his review in relating how he arrives at his numeric score and he isn't the first to do so. My simple challenge to your process is that if you yourselves see this as an issue in almost every review, why not expand the process by which you determine your numeric ratings to be more relevant and match the care and consideration given your text with a value that is equally well-considered and more appropriately defined

IGN breaks down games into criteria and assigns individual scores for each. That isn't a bad place to start, but I'm not suggesting that you emulate them because if you are familiar with how they review, you can score 5 out of 10 on 4 of 5 criteria and then still wind up with an overall score of 8.5 based on the fifth criteria being valued at a 7.6 (??HELLO??). Pick some criteria decide on your weighting of those and then format your review to match both the value of your comments to a well-considered and weighted numeric value. It seems pretty simple to me

This site strives to be the word on sports gaming. I keep challenging this site to take that objective seriously and run with, thereby allowing yourselves to truly be the voice of the sports gaming market. There are many things that you do well but there are still some that need work. This is one of those things. At the end of the day that's my opinion, and out here in Guelph that's worth about a hill of small beans (maybe less...) but the idea is that maybe it's worth noting

If not who gives a rat's *** and just go off and do what the hell you want to anyways. It doesn't mean that my opinion changes just because you disagree with me

I guess that's the way opinions work

Have ffun.........

[KBomber]

Quote: Originally Posted by nucahx

I think that it is pointless to have a 10/10 system and never be able to give a game a 10. Any case where you would consider giving a game a perfect score you always need to ask the question: "Is this the definitive game in the genre?" If the answer is yes then you can give the game a score of 10/10 while pointing out any flaws that the game may still have. 10/10 doesn't mean perfect, it only means best of the best. That's why you have a number, and a text review.

Yeah, I disagree

Have fun..........

[Shaver]

Quote: Originally Posted by KBomber

As always, you guys are enormously sensitive to any for of criticism or suggestion and to that end, I'd only offer that maybe having less thin skin about any opinion that isn't in lock step with your own be treated with a bit more of an open mind. First point, the score may very well fit the OS definition of what a 10 out of 10 should be. That being the case, the basic premise of the scoring system is flawed. If a game is, as noted, imperfect, the possibility of a perfect score should be an impossibility. Here Aaron himself makes note of the fact that the definition defines his score but that it essentially isn't representative of the game being perfect, so, once again we see where a reviewer is pidgeon-holed into a score rather than making a fair relation from their written comments to a numeric value I haven't theorized in depth as to how Aaron's score relates to a numeric value. I've ballparked it, in a sense given the commentary, that while he believes the game is excellent, there are still some flaws. Essentially, the basis of how you guys establish your scoring system is up to you but right now you process is flawed, much in the same way that the subjective scoring systems in some Olympic sports where flawed and then re-addressed, in some cases more than once My basic belief is that in rating games, much like in rating players in games, the possibility for being "Perfect" is an impossibility, no matter what Jamie Lee Curtis thinks. There is no such thing and any system that can deliver perfection as a score is fundamentally flawed. You guys take great care to take time to play these games. You take great care in choosing your words to describe your personal experiences with the game and then you just toss in a numeric value to describe all of that consideration without a care in the world, based on criteria that are flawed in their pre-determination. Aaron Holbert makes specific mention of this in his review in relating how he arrives at his numeric score and he isn't the first to do so. My simple challenge to your process is that if you yourselves see this as an issue in almost every review, why not expand the process by which you determine your numeric ratings to be more relevant and match the care and consideration given your text with a value that is equally well-considered and more appropriately defined IGN breaks down games into criteria and assigns individual scores for each. That isn't a bad place to start, but I'm not suggesting that you emulate them because if you are familiar with how they review, you can score 5 out of 10 on 4 of 5 criteria and then still wind up with an overall score of 8.5 based on the fifth criteria being valued at a 7.6 (??HELLO??). Pick some criteria decide on your weighting of those and then format your review to match both the value of your comments to a well-considered and weighted numeric value. It seems pretty simple to me This site strives to be the word on sports gaming. I keep challenging this site to take that objective seriously and run with, thereby allowing yourselves to truly be the voice of the sports gaming market. There are many things that you do well but there are still some that need work. This is one of those things. At the end of the day that's my opinion, and out here in Guelph that's worth about a hill of small beans (maybe less...) but the idea is that maybe it's worth noting If not who gives a rat's *** and just go off and do what the hell you want to anyways. It doesn't mean that my opinion changes just because you disagree with me I guess that's the way opinions work Have ffun.........

Once again you have failed to make a valid point to defend your argument and your ballpark. In addition, your next homework assignment (should you choose to accept it) is to tell me how (a) Operation Sports is dropping the ball in terms of being the voice for the Sports Gamer and (b) explain to me why fitting neatly inside the same box as IGN, Gamespot, etc... is a good thing?

It's very easy to run into a room, yell out an opinion, and run out without ever giving a justification, but your show is becoming repetitive. You have found a creative loophole for trolling. It's not a bother to anyone. I just only think that it is fair for your to respond to "challenges" as well.

[KBomber]

Quote: Originally Posted by Clay_OS

Once again you have failed to make a valid point to defend your argument and your ballpark. In addition, your next homework assignment (should you choose to accept it) is to tell me how (a) Operation Sports is dropping the ball in terms of being the voice for the Sports Gamer and (b) explain to me why fitting neatly inside the same box as IGN, Gamespot, etc... is a good thing? It's very easy to run into a room, yell out an opinion, and run out without ever giving a justification, but your show is becoming repetitive. You have found a creative loophole for trolling. It's not a bother to anyone. I just only think that it is fair for your to respond to "challenges" as well.

With respect to my homework assignment "Teach", in the very line where I offered the IGN model, I also suggested that those parameters need not necessarily be followed verbatim. In fact I offered how you might review your process. I'm offering a way in which you could enhance your review process, you can take it or leave it, but it is a common thing to see reviewers on this site, in review, add a disclaimer concerning their numeric values for their reviews. If it is something that you have to talk about, then it is something that's worth discussing

Your right on your opinion concerning opinions but that goes for your own as well

If you can't take an opinion with getting all weepy waily, what are you doing on a message board?

Have fun, there Mr. Sensitivity.............

[Shaver]

Quote: Originally Posted by KBomber

With respect to my homework assignment "Teach", in the very line where I offered the IGN model, I also suggested that those parameters need not necessarily be followed verbatim. In fact I offered how you might review your process. I'm offering a way in which you could enhance your review process, you can take it or leave it, but it is a common thing to see reviewers on this site, in review, add a disclaimer concerning their numeric values for their reviews. If it is something that you have to talk about, then it is something that's worth discussing Your right on your opinion concerning opinions but that goes for your own as well If you can't take an opinion with getting all weepy waily, what are you doing on a message board? Have fun, there Mr. Sensitivity.............

The sad part is you occasionally make a somewhat valid point and then you negate it by trying to personally attack people who simply ask you to qualify your statement.

The Reviewers on this site will, on occasion, offer a statement on the score because we have a large audience who factor everything into that number (like yourself).

Finally, know your history...

OS has in the past used multiple scoring systems. We did a 1-100, but people argued that a game didn't deserve a 89... it should have gotten an 87. Foolish. We tried a 1-5, which severly handcuffed our writers. We tried removing scores all together and people were outraged. When Shawn became the Managing Editor, we finally settled on the 10 point system and he gave our Staff definitions for each score. Shawn's system is rock solid internally and, to be frank, he has the credentials in this industry (and others) to trust this direction.

Thank you for your opinions. We'll be releasing at least one new review every day this week, including 3 of mine. I'll look forward to hearing what I've done wrong on each.

[KBomber]

Quote: Originally Posted by Clay_OS

The sad part is you occasionally make a somewhat valid point and then you negate it by trying to personally attack people who simply ask you to qualify your statement. The Reviewers on this site will, on occasion, offer a statement on the score because we have a large audience who factor everything into that number (like yourself). Finally, know your history... OS has in the past used multiple scoring systems. We did a 1-100, but people argued that a game didn't deserve a 89... it should have gotten an 87. Foolish. We tried a 1-5, which severly handcuffed our writers. We tried removing scores all together and people were outraged. When Shawn became the Managing Editor, we finally settled on the 10 point system and he gave our Staff definitions for each score. Shawn's system is rock solid internally and, to be frank, he has the credentials in this industry (and others) to trust this direction. Thank you for your opinions. We'll be releasing at least one new review every day this week, including 3 of mine. I'll look forward to hearing what I've done wrong on each.

Calling you over-sensitive is as much an opinion as a personal attack, you can view it either way, quite honestly. If you guys are committed to a 10 point scale, I still think that you are better served if that is expressed to decimal places, is weighted to varying criteria and considers the fact that no game is perfect, thereby eliminating scores of 10 in the first place

That's it, that's all

Have fun...................

[KymeraGB]

Great post, im actually gettign it today and cant wait to take my Bucks all the way!!!

[sdrotar]

KBomber, if I had my way, there would be no scores whatsoever.
In my opinion, they serve no purpose other than to draw attention away from the text of the review - where the actual information resides.

"Scores" have become an Internet strawman - a construct that is purely arbitrary and offers no real value to the reader.

You may be able to tell me a game is a "93" or a "96", but that's purely your subjective opinion based on what you prefer in gaming. This is not to minimize your opinion, which is wholly valid, but rather a statement explaining the vagaries of any "scoring" system.

What qualifies as a "93" or "96" - to me - might be entirely different, which would render my "score" useless for you.

It's a quandary in gaming journalism - if such a thing even exists in the mainstream, but I do know one thing for certain: arguing over a "score" from either side is akin to a puff of sand in a tornado; noticeable momentarily, and potentially aggravating, to be sure, but in the end, it makes no real difference at all.